All Motor B20Vtec

[gbpracing]

Hey guys my car is finally ready and hitting the track at Phillip Island next weekend. The builder is extreamly happy with the power and torque and said it continues to make power all the way to 8500 rpm and beyond.
The dyno tuner had problems with consistant readings due to the wheel spin even with two guys in the car and one guy standing on the front, but he would estimate the hp flyweel at 265bhp. So off to Phillip Island next weekend :-)

[u mad?]

i see.

[senna]

So around 140fwkw then?

What is the curve like? good power band or are you going to have your work cut out keeping it singing?

[Benson]

What dyno are you using?

[SLOBRO]

nicce
vids and graph pics??

[Riced_Civic]

curious, what gearing r u using for PI?

[gbpracing]

So around 140fwkw then?

What is the curve like? good power band or are you going to have your work cut out keeping it singing?
The power curve is constantly on the up, does not drop away at all , same with the torque @8500

[gbpracing]

What dyno are you using?
The dyno is an old one Dyno Dynamics at Powerplay ex Dat Rally Cheltenham in Melbourne.

[gbpracing]

curious, what gearing r u using for PI?
I have 96 TypeR box with 4:785:1 F/D
Im expecting to be better able to use 5th earlier onto the straight and get to 8500rpm before turn one.

[gbpracing]

nicce

vids and graph pics??
Pics and Go Pro vid will be posted after this weekend.

[gbpracing]

So around 140fwkw then?

What is the curve like? good power band or are you going to have your work cut out keeping it singing?
not sure how you calculated 140kw
Tell if im wrong here, 265hp = 198kw take 15% for drive train loss, some say 10% but I will go the higher figure and that comes to 168kw @wheels ?

[senna]

Yeah, i was only going off 30% which is more rwd speaking...

[SLOBRO]

nice cant wait lol wana see the vids :D

[Water Boy]

Bruce says this was pretty fast!

[gbpracing]

Short few laps for running in. Very Happy with the power. Simon and Mike at Powerplay Cheltenham built a great engine for me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiYTRDIkd4o&feature=plcp

[MRJDM]

Nice nice nice

[SLOBRO]

dam thats nice :D

[Touge Tom]

sweet! whats the rod ratio? and cam duration @ 1mm?

[gbpracing]

sweet! whats the rod ratio? and cam duration @ 1mm?
The cams are Toda C2 spec. inlet 260 deg @1mm , 12.5 lift. Exhaust 255 deg @ 1mm lift, 12.5mm.
Rod ratio of 1.539 rod length 137.01 mm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiYTRDIkd4o&feature=plcp

[spetz]

Why did you set the rev limit at 8,600rpm? What is VTEC point?
And is that wheelspin at the beginning of the video?

Nice work :)

[gbpracing]

Why did you set the rev limit at 8,600rpm? What is VTEC point?
And is that wheelspin at the beginning of the video?

Nice work :)

Hey there, firstly yes that was wheel spin at the exit of pit lane, heaps of torque and cold tires..lol The Vtec point is set at 5400 from memory !!!
The reason for 8600 rpm limit was purely for engine life. The whole engine was built with solid high quality parts top to bottom that would see 9500 rpm with ease but I just don't see the point. Even after this initial shakedown session my data logging indicated that I never got close to the limit at any point in the laps and nor was I intending too. Having said that I felt the car had way more potential but after all it was the first time out with this engine and it was just a shakedown session to ensure all was operating as it should and it did :-)
The next meeting at the Island will be in Sept and this will be when I let it rip.
Thanks for the comment :-)

[spetz]

And what gearbox/final drive is in there? Must be quite a powerful motor to induce wheelspin on the move.

Considering it's a race car wouldn't it be better to get cams which are closer set together so that VTEC point is around the 7,000rpm? That way you upper midrange is more powerful.

Do you have pics of the car at all by any chance?

[gbpracing]

And what gearbox/final drive is in there? Must be quite a powerful motor to induce wheelspin on the move.

Considering it's a race car wouldn't it be better to get cams which are closer set together so that VTEC point is around the 7,000rpm? That way you upper mid range is more powerful.

Do you have pics of the car at all by any chance?
The box I have is from a 1996 TypeR with 4:785:1 f/d and I have carbon lined synchros.
The cams work a treat I have 172kw @ wheels and loads of mid range torque. This is an extremely quick normally aspirated 4 cylinder. I only run at Phillip Island now days and will be looking at times of under 1:48's
If you have a look back through the post on here you will see some pics. Otherwise pm me and I can send more pics to you direct.
Cheers Gary

[spetz]

172kw atw is pretty impressive from an NA B series.
Do you have a build thread by any chance?

[gbpracing]

172kw atw is pretty impressive from an NA B series.
Do you have a build thread by any chance?

Running B20 block 85mm modified forged pistons, new Corrillo rods, Custom 3.5kg lightweight fly wheel with 7 1/4 inch twin plate tilton clutch, block guard, Toda 96 Spec Ver 2 race headers 4-2-1 and Toda C2 spec cams. Intake 48mm ITB, . B16A head full race port 290cfm @ 28" .550" lift, 34mm intake valves 29mm Exhaust valves, race valve springs titanium valve seats.
Autronic engine management, Race technologies dash 2 logger and much much more. Compression will be 12:68:1 and running on race 105 fuel

[spetz]

Can you run the motor on pump fuel?
Nice list you have there :) Who did the head porting?

[SLOBRO]

hey why don't you enter Honda Nationals? it would be cool to have more crazy B series cars lol

[gbpracing]

Can you run the motor on pump fuel?
Nice list you have there :) Who did the head porting?
Not able to run pump fuel as the engine has been tuned on JFP 105
Not sure who did the actual porting the entire engine was built by Simon and Mike at Powerplay Cheltenham Melbourne. I will ask them and let you know.
Slobro what are the Honda Nationals ?

[Benson]

Here you go: http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?162610-Honda-Nationals-2012-September-9th-and-10th-*-Entries-now-OPEN-Meet-Dyno-BBQ-Track/page7 :)

[SLOBRO]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ that lol

[u mad?]

crazy ass b series. Love that its in a da9, something different

[gbpracing]

crazy ass b series. Love that its in a da9, something different

Actually it's a DA6, came from Japan with B16A no sunroof and a few other subtle changes from the DA9
The Gen 2 Integras have extreamly low drag coefficiant makes for excellent racecar. Im Bias lol

[u mad?]

have you weighed it? If not what is estimated weight with no driver?

[gbpracing]

have you weighed it? If not what is estimated weight with no driver?
It weighs 960kg with roll cage

[Touge Tom]

so thats 178.88 kW per tonne, from your 172 kW @ the wheel's with 960Kg's tare weight. so how much including the driver?

[bboyzell]

Damn that's a Great Number, would i be safe to assume that over 200kw at the motor.

[gbpracing]

so thats 178.88 kW per tonne, from your 172 kW @ the wheel's with 960Kg's tare weight. so how much including the driver?
Well I weigh 84Kgs so all up it has great power to weight. Im looking to replace the rear glass from the hatch and the rear 1/4 glass with polycarb sometime down the track. I guess its quite good considering the car body is stock minus the interior trim and about 15kgs of sound deadner.

[gbpracing]

Damn that's a Great Number, would i be safe to assume that over 200kw at the motor.
265bhp @ Flywheel or 198kw less 13% loss through the drivetrain.. gives the 173 kw at wheels..

[spetz]

How much power do you think you would make if it was tuned for pump gas?

[gbpracing]

How much power do you think you would make if it was tuned for pump gas?
Not sure why you would think of doing that given the compression Im running. For sure its worth more power running high comp with race fuel but it more a case of having the best possible tune for the engine set up. I guess to answer your question..... same power just wont last long due to pinging and we all know thats not good.

[spetz]

I was asking out of curiosity of how this motor would be in a street car

[gbpracing]

I was asking out of curiosity of how this motor would be in a street car
There are plenty of these B20Vtec engines going around in street cars and work a treat.
I guess when you build an engine to the specs I have, the best place to enjoy the full potential is on the track. Mind you I could easly use the engine in a road car, it idles well but paying $3 a litre, I would choose where I go very carefully...

[spetz]

At $3/L you'd have a 4 cylinder with the economy of a V12 :)

[u mad?]

surely u coud 'detune' it and run on 98 or e85.

Inb4 dont call me surely

[gbpracing]

surely u coud 'detune' it and run on 98 or e85.

Inb4 dont call me surely

Im sure there are many more options but the fact that this is a dedicated track car I dont have any need to run anything other than what I have...Happy to pay $3 a litre as there are more expensive race fuels costing up to $9 per litre, so I think I got off quite cheaply lol
E 85 more suited for higher comp engines than what Im running and E85 have other inherant issues that made it easy to steer clear of. Each to their own...

[spetz]

How do you buy race fuel?

And can you tell me more about E85 and the pros in a high comp motor as well the the cons?

[lil_foy]

How do you buy race fuel?

And can you tell me more about E85 and the pros in a high comp motor as well the the cons?

Holy shit you seriously have to be a spam bot.

[gbpracing]

How do you buy race fuel?

And can you tell me more about E85 and the pros in a high comp motor as well the the cons?
Mate the internet is a wonderful thing lol....do a search knock yourself out !

[spetz]

Actually I asked because I wanted the opinion of someone who has a high comp NA motor (ie, the pros/cons for your application).
I've read articles about it and to be honest not quite sure which parts to believe, as I see a lot of people now use E85 for high powered cars, but just a few years ago anything with ethanol seemed like the worst thing on earth

[gbpracing]

Actually I asked because I wanted the opinion of someone who has a high comp NA motor (ie, the pros/cons for your application).
I've read articles about it and to be honest not quite sure which parts to believe, as I see a lot of people now use E85 for high powered cars, but just a few years ago anything with ethanol seemed like the worst thing on earth
Use Of E85
While is copes quite well with the compression ratio, there appears to be no other benefit, unless you had a turbo engine.
However on the down side, it uses a massive amount of fuel compared to conventional fuels, this means larger fuel lines, pressure reg etc. The blow by has a strong tendency to dilute the engine oil. The fuel being an alcohol type is hygroscopic in that it absorbs moisture. You can end up with a catch can that distils its own alcohol in it. Also like Methanol the car can be hard to start cold. While V8 tourers use the fuel they do so for more political reasons.
Cheers

[spetz]

Thanks for that.
Does this mean that because it copes well with high compression, that you can have a more powerful engine if built with E85 in mind?
Otherwise it seems like it is no good

[gbpracing]

Thanks for that.
Does this mean that because it copes well with high compression, that you can have a more powerful engine if built with E85 in mind?
Otherwise it seems like it is no good
Simply put, I would be using about 30% more fuel to achieve same power and my 12:6:1 is not really thought of as high comp when compared to other race engines, when I speak of high compression engines I'm talking 13:1 up to 16:1 to benefit use of E85 OR Turbo where cooler air/fuel charge is created from use of E85.
So no I would not make anymore power using the same engine set up with E85 and yes for my application it would be a waste of time.
I know a guy that has built much the same ALL MOTOR engine combo as I have B20 block and B16 head , higher comp 13:1 using E85 and he has less power than I do ! Now there are many other build factors that need to be considered, such as how much head work was done, cam shafts used lift duration, I may have other mods that have been done to mine that he may not have done to his and so on..The list could as long as your arm !

[Dart]

Have you put a compression tester onto your engine ( screws into spark plug thread) just curious . I would like to compare the reading with my built engine.

[gbpracing]

Have you put a compression tester onto your engine ( screws into spark plug thread) just curious . I would like to compare the reading with my built engine.
I really dont see the point as my engine build is substantially modified and is one of a kind as most engine builds are. Can never really compare one to another..as there will always be something unique and even subtle things make a differance.

[Touge Tom]

yeah, cam duration also changes compression ratio. considering true compression begins when the intake valve closes and the piston has already risen up the bore slightly. then there's rod ratio and how much CC's the combustion chamber has? take mine for example, iv'e got a standard p72 head, 13.5:1 static comp, 1.58:1 rod ratio and a 250 dur cam's @ 1mm lift. the actual cranking compression is only 11.5:1 or so.

[Dart]

yeah, cam duration also changes compression ratio. considering true compression begins when the intake valve closes and the piston has already risen up the bore slightly. then there's rod ratio and how much CC's the combustion chamber has? take mine for example, iv'e got a standard p72 head, 13.5:1 static comp, 1.58:1 rod ratio and a 250 dur cam's @ 1mm lift. the actual cranking compression is only 11.5:1 or so.

The last two responses is why I asked the question. I know there is all the above listed variables , and I was curious to see in this case what all those variables added up to.

[gbpracing]

The last two responses is why I asked the question. I know there is all the above listed variables , and I was curious to see in this case what all those variables added up to.
This is a dead end discussion,we have given you enough info to help you realise that engine builds are an individual and unique to each project. The outcome is dependent on the detail, expertise, experience and money !