CL9 - Says you can use Ethanol Blend fuel - WTF?? Anyone tried it???

[Mattmt79]

So in the instruction manual and on the fuel hatch door it says that you can use the E10 Ethanol blend fuel.

Now let me just say first that I've only owned my CL9 for 3 months and I've never put anything less than Unleaded-95 in it and I don't intend to use the Ethanol blend. But I was wondering if anyone has? Any difference in fuel economy and power? (I presume there would be less)... Would it be worse for the engine?

Cheers

[androo]

I know it doesn't really make it clear in the manual, but the car can accept E10 for emergency use. Preferably, you would fill up with E10 only at places that only offer E10 (for whatever reason), then go back to 95+ when you get the chance to. You can run E10, but since the car was tuned for 95+, you may experience pinging, loss of power and a decrease in economy. I would suggest against it simply because you want the most out of your motor.

A lot of cars with a need for premium fuels also say it's E10 compatible. Again, it's mainly to get you out of trouble. The FN2 also says this but I wouldn't put any of it in there unless it's an emergency! And even then, I would only put enough to get to the next filling station because I'm a paranoid git.

[ChaosMaster]

I've used E10 a few times at places that didn't have premium (or pumps stopped working for some reason). As far as I can tell, it performs just like on 95 performance wise, but you do lose a bit of fuel economy, although I don't have exact figures as I haven't tried it a few times in a row to test it out.


I know it doesn't really make it clear in the manual, but the car can accept E10 for emergency use. Preferably, you would fill up with E10 only at places that only offer E10 (for whatever reason), then go back to 95+ when you get the chance to. You can run E10, but since the car was tuned for 95+, you may experience pinging, loss of power and a decrease in economy. I would suggest against it simply because you want the most out of your motor.

A lot of cars with a need for premium fuels also say it's E10 compatible. Again, it's mainly to get you out of trouble. The FN2 also says this but I wouldn't put any of it in there unless it's an emergency! And even then, I would only put enough to get to the next filling station because I'm a paranoid git.

I disagree with Androo, actually I reckon this baseless and lies conducted through his own prejudice. E10 isn't for emergency use. If it was, they wouldn't even advertise it on the fuel filler cap. I mean you might as well use 91 if it were an emergency. E10 used to be bad because ethanol would burn through rubber. New cars don't have the rubber seals in the fuel lines. Actually most cars made in the past 20 years are ok with E10.

Increase chances of ping and lose power? In the Euro? Seriously? E10 has a RON of 95 just like "premium" 95 petrol. Do you know what Octane even stands for? Heck, Shells 100 octane (don't sell it here anymore) and United Petrol 100 RON use 5% ethanol. The octane rating is basically how resistant the fuel is to ignition. What this means is that the engines can run leaner and/or higher compression meaning more torque/power and better economy.

Running 91 on the other hand, would be bad. However, because the Euro's have sensors which measure the quality of the fuel, it can tell when it's running 95, 98 or 91. And when it detects the RON falls below 95, it runs a richer A/F ratio to prevent the engine for going bang.

Just in case you didn't know, A/F stands for Air Fuel Ratio. The golden ratio is 14.7:1 meaning 14.7 litres of air to 1 litre of fuel. The optimal ratio for cars though, is 12.5:1. Cars are normally tuned to run rich, which basically means a lower ration e.g. 9:1, as they would use the fuel as a coolant as well to cool the bores of the engine, as well as preventing early combustion or engine going bang in laymen terms. As mentioned, the Euro's have sensors built in, so with 91, it maybe running 9:1, with E10 or 95, it maybe running 10:1, and with 98+ it maybe running 10.5:1. Which is why fuel economy and power changes with the Euro. Do note that some other cars don't have the sensor in them, so they will perform the same regardless.

Fuel economy is worse with E10 because Ethanol has a lower energy than Petrol (KJ/L). In E10, I think the difference is 5% which is why the fuel economy drops by 3-5%. Has nothing to do with power or how the engine runs though.

[Chr1s]

blaahhh

[Jasemas]

I've used E10 a few times at places that didn't have premium (or pumps stopped working for some reason). As far as I can tell, it performs just like on 95 performance wise, but you do lose a bit of fuel economy, although I don't have exact figures as I haven't tried it a few times in a row to test it out.



I disagree with Androo, actually I reckon this baseless and lies conducted through his own prejudice. E10 isn't for emergency use. If it was, they wouldn't even advertise it on the fuel filler cap. I mean you might as well use 91 if it were an emergency. E10 used to be bad because ethanol would burn through rubber. New cars don't have the rubber seals in the fuel lines. Actually most cars made in the past 20 years are ok with E10.

Increase chances of ping and lose power? In the Euro? Seriously? E10 has a RON of 95 just like "premium" 95 petrol. Do you know what Octane even stands for? Heck, Shells 100 octane (don't sell it here anymore) and United Petrol 100 RON use 5% ethanol. The octane rating is basically how resistant the fuel is to ignition. What this means is that the engines can run leaner and/or higher compression meaning more torque/power and better economy.

Running 91 on the other hand, would be bad. However, because the Euro's have sensors which measure the quality of the fuel, it can tell when it's running 95, 98 or 91. And when it detects the RON falls below 95, it runs a richer A/F ratio to prevent the engine for going bang.

Just in case you didn't know, A/F stands for Air Fuel Ratio. The golden ratio is 14.7:1 meaning 14.7 litres of air to 1 litre of fuel. The optimal ratio for cars though, is 12.5:1. Cars are normally tuned to run rich, which basically means a lower ration e.g. 9:1, as they would use the fuel as a coolant as well to cool the bores of the engine, as well as preventing early combustion or engine going bang in laymen terms. As mentioned, the Euro's have sensors built in, so with 91, it maybe running 9:1, with E10 or 95, it maybe running 10:1, and with 98+ it maybe running 10.5:1. Which is why fuel economy and power changes with the Euro. Do note that some other cars don't have the sensor in them, so they will perform the same regardless.

Fuel economy is worse with E10 because Ethanol has a lower energy than Petrol (KJ/L). In E10, I think the difference is 5% which is why the fuel economy drops by 3-5%. Has nothing to do with power or how the engine runs though.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to ChaosMaster again.

[Chr1s]

Ok sorry gents,

In all honesty, the fuel cap label for the CL9 clearly states "suitable for e10" or whatever it says, Honda would not put this there if it was not suitable or would cause damage. Of course they "suggest" 95+ RON, they are trying to compete with the european market which all follow that suit. They should of brought the diesel in to be honest.. anyway;


Running 91 on the other hand, would be bad. However, because the Euro's have sensors which measure the quality of the fuel, it can tell when it's running 95, 98 or 91. And when it detects the RON falls below 95, it runs a richer A/F ratio to prevent the engine for going bang.


The K24A2 utilises knock sensors, not octane rating sensors, nor does it increase the amount of fuel going into the engine when knock is detected, it retards timing at a certain rate until the knock level has reduced below a certain level, then begins to reinstate timing again. You may lose economy this way by then putting your foot down more to make up for the lack of torque from the reduced timing.


Just in case you didn't know, A/F stands for Air Fuel Ratio. The golden ratio is 14.7:1 meaning 14.7 litres of air to 1 litre of fuel. The optimal ratio for cars though, is 12.5:1. Cars are normally tuned to run rich, which basically means a lower ration e.g. 9:1, as they would use the fuel as a coolant as well to cool the bores of the engine, as well as preventing early combustion or engine going bang in laymen terms. As mentioned, the Euro's have sensors built in, so with 91, it maybe running 9:1, with E10 or 95, it maybe running 10:1, and with 98+ it maybe running 10.5:1. Which is why fuel economy and power changes with the Euro. Do note that some other cars don't have the sensor in them, so they will perform the same regardless.

Stoichiometric ratio for gasoline is 14.7:1 - not all fuels, just to be clear. There is no optimal ratio for cars, it has been observed that the power output of gasoline is highest at 12.8:1 or so, but in reality, each engine demands a different ratio - I've seen engines chug down in the 11's and make maximum power there - this has nothing to do with the fuel, but the engine characteristic (cams, worn, etc). Yeah, if our engine was running 10 or 9:1, we would like the typical skyline on boost, lots of black smoke :)

NRMA states that E10 is fine for cars from 1990+ I think. You know what, I ran E10 everyday in my breeze civic and my EK civic, NEVER EVER EVER had a problem in years. I even replaced filters and didn't see anything strange in them.

[chuboy]

Many servos will sell premium fuel that is also an E10 blend. E10 is not the same as 91RON.

[Dogchaser]

Many servos will sell premium fuel that is also an E10 blend. E10 is not the same as 91RON.

You are correct...
E10 is not the same as 91RON...
E10 has an octane rating of 95+RON...
I have used E10 in my Euro on and off for years, never had a single issue...
As has been said, if Honda say u can use it, u can use it....:thumbsup:

[androo]

Sorry I got some peoples panties in a tangle.


So in the instruction manual and on the fuel hatch door it says that you can use the E10 Ethanol blend fuel.

Now let me just say first that I've only owned my CL9 for 3 months and I've never put anything less than Unleaded-95 in it and I don't intend to use the Ethanol blend. But I was wondering if anyone has? Any difference in fuel economy and power? (I presume there would be less)... Would it be worse for the engine?

Cheers

I was assuming the OP was talking about standard 91 octane E10. I don't know where you guys are getting 'E10 has 95 octane.' Shell makes a guarantee that their E10 has a minimum of 94 octane, and United guarantees 95, however the rest guarantee 91+.

Sure, E10 has a higher octane value than normal 91 unleaded, however maybe it's just me but I rather my car get the 95+ like the manufacturer recommends, over a non guaranteed 93-94 (94 for Shell anyway).

If they made 95 + E10, I would be more than happy to run it but to my knowledge this is not widely available (at least on all the roads I drive on), hence the assumption the OP is talking about 91 E10.

I would not be happy running 91 E10. Your cars though guys so do with it what you will. Just don't critisize me for a simple misunderstanding. You guys are the ones providing false guarantees that 91 E10 = 95+ octane. If the suppliers/manufacturers don't claim over 95 octane, I don't know how you guys can :S

[trism]

Know the United 100octane? Thats an ethanol blend afaik.

Its 98RON with ethanol to bring it up over 100.

[ChaosMaster]

Sorry I got some peoples panties in a tangle.



I was assuming the OP was talking about standard 91 octane E10. I don't know where you guys are getting 'E10 has 95 octane.' Shell makes a guarantee that their E10 has a minimum of 94 octane, and United guarantees 95, however the rest guarantee 91+.

Sure, E10 has a higher octane value than normal 91 unleaded, however maybe it's just me but I rather my car get the 95+ like the manufacturer recommends, over a non guaranteed 93-94 (94 for Shell anyway).

If they made 95 + E10, I would be more than happy to run it but to my knowledge this is not widely available (at least on all the roads I drive on), hence the assumption the OP is talking about 91 E10.

I would not be happy running 91 E10. Your cars though guys so do with it what you will. Just don't critisize me for a simple misunderstanding. You guys are the ones providing false guarantees that 91 E10 = 95+ octane. If the suppliers/manufacturers don't claim over 95 octane, I don't know how you guys can :S

I've never seen E10 with an octane (RON) of 91. Especially since the RON of pure Ethanol is 113 which is much higher than petrol. What's more, I believe Australian Standard and Requirements require ULP, which is regular unleaded petrol, is 91 RON. How would mixing a higher RON liquid with a 91 RON fuel while keeping it the same, I've no idea how that works. It's like saying, you have half a tank of 105 RON racing fuel, and fill the other half tank with 91 RON ULP, the resulting fuel would be of 98 RON, not 91 RON. The lowest I've ever seen E10 rated is 94 RON. Again, if you know a company selling 91 RON, please tell me.

94 RON maybe 1 below 95 RON but I wouldn't be too concerned. As I mentioned, while Ethanol may have a higher octane property than petrol, it's energy content is lower. What this means is that more is required to generate the same "bang" as petrol. Which is why using Ethanol may result in producing more power, but also results in higher fuel consumption. One thing you may want to note, as mentioned in my earlier post, the K24 will change it's compression (or a:f as it's linked) to match that of the fuel, and prevent knock. With E10, the engine will put more fuel in (or run lower ratio), meaning that even though E10 has a lower RON, the extra fuel would prevent any knock/ping anyways.

[Fredoops]

I've never seen E10 with an octane (RON) of 91. Especially since the RON of pure Ethanol is 113 which is much higher than petrol. What's more, I believe Australian Standard and Requirements require ULP, which is regular unleaded petrol, is 91 RON. How would mixing a higher RON liquid with a 91 RON fuel while keeping it the same, I've no idea how that works. It's like saying, you have half a tank of 105 RON racing fuel, and fill the other half tank with 91 RON ULP, the resulting fuel would be of 98 RON, not 91 RON. The lowest I've ever seen E10 rated is 94 RON. Again, if you know a company selling 91 RON, please tell me.
.

Thats because you're in Melbourne dude..... a lot of politics around Ethanol.

BP E10 in NSW is only 91.
Caltex E10 in NSW also 91 (also QLD)

88 Octane +10% ethanol = 91.

You've made the assumption that the petrol refineries only refine 91 then add 10%.

They don't. Some refineries refine the petrol to 88 octane then add ethanol to boost it to 91. it's cheaper to make than 91octane +e10 to 94/5. Also, because of the volatility of Ethanol blended fuel... they cant all guarantee it'll still be 94.5 octane when you pick up the pump even for those 91+10% folks.....

You cant argue with physics, all addictive being equal E10 fuel also has less energy content than pure petrol, your fuel consumption would go up.

Even by NSW government (who made E10 compulsory in NSW in replacement of 91), then themselves concurred that E10 will increase the fuel consumption by almost 3%.

Also, ethanol has WATER, for every 60 litres of E10, there is 300ml (a glass full) of H2O in the fuel tank. What's worse, the mixture actually absorbs moisture, so it dilutes the fuel and makes the liquid MUCH more volatile and prone to contamination.........

Water contamination and/or phase separation will lower the octane of E10 by 3 to 4 points. Which is why you read all over the place that ethanol fuel blends expire after 90 days and may expire even sooner after exposure to moisture.

[ChaosMaster]

BP E10 in NSW is only 91.
Caltex E10 in NSW also 91 (also QLD)

88 Octane +10% ethanol = 91.

You've made the assumption that the petrol refineries only refine 91 then add 10%.

They don't. Some refineries refine the petrol to 88 octane then add ethanol to boost it to 91. it's cheaper to make than 91octane +e10 to 94/5

You cant argue with physics, all addictive being equal E10 fuel also has less energy content than pure petrol, your fuel consumption would go up.

Even by NSW government (who made E10 compulsory in NSW in replacement of 91), then themselves concurred that E10 will increase the fuel consumption by almost 3%.

Also, ethanol has WATER, for every 60 litres of E10, there is 300ml (a glass full) of H2O in the fuel tank. it dilutes the fuel and makes the liquid MUCH more volatile.

http://www.fuel-testers.com/gasoline_octane_and_ethanol_E10.html

Ah, I guess it's different in NSW then. In Vic, I believe legislation requires ULP to be 91 RON, where 10 years ago, it used to be as low as 87 RON. NSW may have taken a different stance since they basically forced E10 into all petrol stations.

[androo]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Fredoops again.

[Fredoops]

I will only use E10 when I can be certain the fuel will be all used up very quickly (within a week for 95 E10, within 2 weeks for 98 E10)

Because the moment E10 is refined/blended it starts to deteriorate and contaminate.

If you use E10 and car starts to ping or run poorly, the fuel's contaminated/expired.


Ah, I guess it's different in NSW then. In Vic, I believe legislation requires ULP to be 91 RON, where 10 years ago, it used to be as low as 87 RON. NSW may have taken a different stance since they basically forced E10 into all petrol stations.

the octane rating is tested on the final product, not the components, so 88+10% Ethanol is still 91.l

[blommer]

24360

some handy info from Hondaone

[Fredoops]

24360

some handy info from Hondaone

The fuel needs to be be E10 AND at least 95 Octane to be used.

Not any plain old E10 is usable.

Most people don't realise that


Also here some reading on for those who are interested in what happens to Ethanol blended fuels:
http://fuelschool.blogspot.com.au/2009/02/phase-separation-in-ethanol-blended.html

[Phoebus]

iirc most E10 is about 95 RON. Doesn't ethanol increase the RON?

[blommer]

iirc most E10 is about 95 RON. Doesn't ethanol increase the RON?


Doubt that, it's the octane rating that's concerned. Ethanol doesnt increase octane rating at all. In fact, ethanol contains less energy value than petrol and will have some loss in power & fuel economy (2-3%)

[Fredoops]

Doubt that, it's the octane rating that's concerned. Ethanol doesnt increase octane rating at all. In fact, ethanol contains less energy value than petrol and will have some loss in power & fuel economy (2-3%)

Ron has nothing to do with energy content.

Ethanol DOES increase Ron.

Ie: 91 +10% Ethanol = 94.5 Ron

[trism]

One thing you may want to note, as mentioned in my earlier post, the K24 will change it's compression (or a:f as it's linked) to match that of the fuel, and prevent knock. With E10, the engine will put more fuel in (or run lower ratio), meaning that even though E10 has a lower RON, the extra fuel would prevent any knock/ping anyways.

Say what?

No it doesnt. It cant.

When the ecu senses detonation through the knock sensor, it pulls out ignition timing, and richens the mixture up.

[alz_275]

I just filled up yesterday with premium 100 e10 from united
Will let you guys know how it goes later in during the week

[ChaosMaster]

Either way, E10 will be better for your car than regular ULP. I mean if ULP is 88RON (which it seems to be in NSW) then E10 would be 91RON, where as if ULP was 91 RON (Vic), then E10 would be 94RON. Eitherway, E10 is safer than ULP.

[trism]

I mean if ULP is 88RON (which it seems to be in NSW) then E10 would be 91RON, where as if ULP was 91 RON (Vic), then E10 would be 94RON. Eitherway, E10 is safer than ULP.

Every state has the same fuel.

Regular ULP is no lower than 91RON. Ethanol has a RON of 109. so when blended with ULP in a 90/10 mixture, you end up with about 94RON. HOWEVER, its not always a perfect 90/10 mixture. That 10% is the MAXIMUM amount of ethanol that is in the fuel. It could be anywhere from 1% to 10%. Therefore, the RON of E10 will vary between 91 and 94RON

Then we have 95 and 98 PULP, which is ethanol free.

The 100 octane you see united selling is still E10, but its mixed with 98RON.

SOURCE; Have managed servo chains.

[ChaosMaster]

Every state has the same fuel.

Regular ULP is no lower than 91RON. Ethanol has a RON of 109. so when blended with ULP in a 90/10 mixture, you end up with about 94RON. HOWEVER, its not always a perfect 90/10 mixture. That 10% is the MAXIMUM amount of ethanol that is in the fuel. It could be anywhere from 1% to 10%. Therefore, the RON of E10 will vary between 91 and 94RON

Then we have 95 and 98 PULP, which is ethanol free.

The 100 octane you see united selling is still E10, but its mixed with 98RON.

SOURCE; Have managed servo chains.

Is what I said and thought, but according to Freddy, it's not so. I personally haven't seen 88 RON in over a decade, not even on my interstate trips. But if he insist, I've no reason to argue. I get the 10% being the maximum part, but considering ethanol is cheaper than petrol, you'ld assume fuel stations would want to be over, rather than under. It's a reason why the limit is a maximum yet not minimum.