Lowering Euro and other suspension mods

[eurosp]

I am thinking of lowering my Euro. What do I have to look/ask for? Anyone know the estimated cost?

[joey_kev]

just get a set of lowered springs..
king springs maybe around $400 fitted
But I'd recommend something better for a euro, like H&R or eibach...they are about $500ish (not fitted) but worth the money

how low are you going though?

[eurosp]

I don't know? I have not done this before. How low can I go?

[joey_kev]

I think lowered springs will drop your car about 1.5-2"

[madjace]

i had king springs on my integra dc5 untill i put tein coilovers on it . king springs are ok but a bit harsh , i havent used the other brands mentioned but i probably wouldnt use king springs on the euro ( i want to lower mine aswell so let me know what you end up going with and how they were ) i think the euro is a resonably comfy ride which is why i bought it , so if the ride doesnt concern you you can put almost anythiong in there ( probably dont go for super low though )

[GYPO2C]

is it true that using just average lowered springs can actually take away from the stock handling.... especially with a car like the euro which is generally setup handling well anyway?

[Chris_F]

is it true that using just average lowered springs can actually take away from the stock handling.... especially with a car like the euro which is generally setup handling well anyway?

thats very true. I've done a bit of research about lowering the euro and basically i'd avoid only changing the springs for any drop greater than say 1".

The eibach springs (which are a well known/liked brand) will lower a minimum of 1.5-1.6" all round and thats enough to blow the stock shocks. So basically you either get replacement shocks + springs or go for a much more subtle drop. Another thing to remember is that anything approaching 1.5"'s and lower in the euro is probably going to require purchase of a camber kit to adjust the rear camber back into spec (unless of course you don't care about tyre ware)

What i hope to do in the future is buy some well made but fairly basic and inexpensive coilovers (i.e. tein basic coilovers) that will probably end up costing the same as koni yellow shocks + eibach springs but with the addeed advantage of choosing whatever height you want (a feature of coilovers) and the fact that they can be rebuilt and recoditioned as they get older.

www.fulcrumsuspensions.com.au (i think thats the site) should be getting these in soon, they also have a camber kit available and can order in whiteline brand sway bar for the euro too.

Hoped that help, but thats the approach i'm taking when i finally get around to lowering my car.

[EuroAccord13]

Search is your Friend.. :)

There are a few threads on different brands of springs and coilovers covered...

[blkeuro]

Are there any springs out there that maintain the same levels of comfort as the stock springs? (Im doubtful)

I installed Tein springs in my DC5R and the ride was so bad, but it looked good at least :D

[eurosp]

If I get Springs, someone told me the inner guard will have to lower/adjust as well, to prevent the wheel from scratching. Is that true?

[EuroAccord13]

Not that I know of, but your camber will be more as the factory setting is set at -1 degree....

[madjace]

why dont you go to a suspension shop , they will anser all of your questions , just make sure you go to one with a good reputaation and tell them what you want to achieve , maybe go to a few , then post what you found out so you can get different opinions form us aswell .

[free2d]

I like my car height. But I want to change to Koni yellow shocks with stock spring to improve stiffness

. Any commend?

[TwEigh]

if you are looking for H&R Spring, i know someone that do it for $550 in perth fitted.
there are 2 version of H&R Spring..
normal.. lower the car 3.5cm
and low version lower the car 5cm

[Breeze]

Freed, If you like the height why increase the stiffness. All you will get is a more uncomfortable ride. You would be better off increasing sway bar diameter to reduce the body roll. Increasing the stiffness will have that CL7 bucking like a bronco. They are already stiffer than the CL9.

[free2d]

Just want to reduce lift off and nose dive.

I dont know if I am right?

[Breeze]

Yeah sorry mate, I read it as you wanted stiffer springs. The Koni yellows are great and can make a difference to those areas. Equally caster settings can reduce dive and squat. The koni yellows are great because you can tailor them to suit your driving with a flick of the wrist. The euro Rs I have driven have had pretty good handling straight out of the box, with all that weight behind the front wheels it is little wonder it squats a bit on takeoff.

Where are you located?

[eurosp]

Sorry I have to bring this up again. I wasn't thinking of coilovers before but just bought a set of Tein Flex (still need to pay the guy). Have I made the right decision? Is coil better than Just changing springs?

[Ferrarista]

I went to ozzytyres, i got it lowered 2 at the front and 2'5 at the back on Custom K-Mac springs, set me back $400

[eurosp]

I went to ozzytyres, i got it lowered 2 at the front and 2'5 at the back on Custom K-Mac springs, set me back $400

I know Springs is cheaper to get than Coils. So do you think springs is better than Coils?

[BiLL|z0r]

No way are they better. They are considerably cheaper than coils for a reason. Each has there place though. $400 vs $2500 for a basic good coil setup is a big difference.

[Ferrarista]

I know Springs is cheaper to get than Coils. So do you think springs is better than Coils?
Definatly not, but im from the school that your not allowed to go more than 60km/h and your not tracking the car.

The Euro has really good handling characteristics via the chassis, its in my opinion (and i stress this 'my opinion') that spending money on parts to improve handling on a daily driven family saloon is a waste of money.

[BiLL|z0r]

I Agree. After having a very firm, stiff and bouncing at times ride before, I'm enjoying the comfort and great stock handling. Maybe some coilovers down the track when the shocks and springs pack it in later.

[eurotrash]

Definatly not, but im from the school that your not allowed to go more than 60km/h and your not tracking the car.

The Euro has really good handling characteristics via the chassis, its in my opinion (and i stress this 'my opinion') that spending money on parts to improve handling on a daily driven family saloon is a waste of money.


Sounds like its time to buy a Volvo?
:p

[Ferrarista]

Definatly not, but im from the school that your not allowed to go more than 60km/h and your not tracking the car.

The Euro has really good handling characteristics via the chassis, its in my opinion (and i stress this 'my opinion') that spending money on parts to improve handling on a daily driven family saloon is a waste of money.


Sounds like its time to buy a Volvo?
:p

Sounds like im not a ricer :D :D :thumbsup:

[yfin]

The Euro has really good handling characteristics via the chassis, its in my opinion (and i stress this 'my opinion') that spending money on parts to improve handling on a daily driven family saloon is a waste of money.

A better handling car is a safer car. Period. Ever needed to do some evasive manoeuvrers at high speed?

Whilst the Euro handling stock is fine - it can be much better with some mods that don't cost that much (thicker sway, strut brace, coilovers) - people spend far more on decent car stereo systems. I don't track my car - but I have comfort knowing my suspension changes means it will react much beter than the stock car.

Eurosp- if you are thinking of lowering your car - look into the Eibach Pro system. Hopefully when released it will be around $1000 and will be much better than just changing springs.

[Ferrarista]

A better handling car is a safer car. Period. Ever needed to do some evasive manoeuvrers at high speed?

Whilst the Euro handling stock is fine - it can be much better with some mods that don't cost that much (thicker sway, strut brace, coilovers) - people spend far more on decent car stereo systems. I don't track my car - but I have comfort knowing my suspension changes means it will react much beter than the stock car.

Eurosp- if you are thinking of lowering your car - look into the Eibach Pro system. Hopefully when released it will be around $1000 and will be much better than just changing springs.


Thats the thing, stock isint just fine - stock is really good its a very well balanced car. If your worried about road handling, spend the money on tyres which are the final contact point to the road. A good tyre will give you peace of mind.

[yfin]

Thats the thing, stock isint just fine - stock is really good its a very well balanced car. If your worried about road handling, spend the money on tyres which are the final contact point to the road. A good tyre will give you peace of mind.

Ferrarista we need to get you into a Euro with the mods I have mentioned :D You will be a believer! Better than just changing tyres - I am talking about the ability to change direction quicker, more stably and at much higher limits. That is what road handling is about IMO.

[Ferrarista]

Ferrarista we need to get you into a Euro with the mods I have mentioned :D You will be a believer! Better than just changing tyres - I am talking about the ability to change direction quicker, more stably and at much higher limits. That is what road handling is about IMO.
Only mod im interested in atm is the Euro-R kit and i still cant find what im looking for :D

[Chris_F]

Ferrarista we need to get you into a Euro with the mods I have mentioned images/smilies/icon_cheesygrin.gif You will be a believer! Better than just changing tyres - I am talking about the ability to change direction quicker, more stably and at much higher limits. That is what road handling is about IMO.

i totally agree. my car feels incredibly stable at high speeds compared to stock and i can change direction and take corners with much more confidence evem at higher speed. I use to think the car was more than "fine" stock too but once you've experienced the higher limits that come with suspension + bracing bar mods thats all it is in comparison :cool:

[Ferrarista]

i totally agree. my car feels incredibly stable at high speeds compared to stock and i can change direction and take corners with much more confidence evem at higher speed. I use to think the car was more than "fine" stock too but once you've experienced the higher limits that come with suspension + bracing bar mods thats all it is in comparison :cool:

..and that has alot to do with centre of gravity which lowering would do, ask the great Enzo Ferrari..he pioneered this. Also add a wider tyre and your fine, especially for a 4 cyliner FWD family car.

[yfin]

..and that has alot to do with centre of gravity which lowering would do, ask the great Enzo Ferrari..he pioneered this. Also add a wider tyre and your fine, especially for a 4 cyliner FWD family car.

A thicker rear sway bar has a far greater difference to handlng than lowering the Euro - I know as I did the sway first.

[Ferrarista]

A thicker rear sway bar has a far greater difference to handlng than lowering the Euro - I know as I did the sway first.

I guess this is just something we have to agree to disagree on :)

[yfin]

I guess this is just something we have to agree to disagree on :)

Prediction. You will disagree with me right up until the day you install the thicker rear sway bar and strut brace. I guess it depends on how you drive and corner - but you don't know what you are missing. :p When people on this forum rave about mods like the Whiteline rear sway - they are not overstating things - it is fantastic.

Anyway - back to topic - Eurosp what have you decided to do? It has been a month or two since this thread started

[Slugoid]

If you lower it with spring, it's best to change your shocks too. I have Eibach's with stock shocks, and it's not a good mix imo. Too bouncy, and feels like you've hit a barrier when going speed humps.

Also, wider tyres aren't always the best solution for traction. With all that body roll, and weight shifting all the way to your outside tyres, no tyres of any width will be able to keep your inside tyres on the road. Sway bars help keep your tyres on the road by reducing roll.

It really depends on what you do with your Euro. I actually like to drive over 60km/h....and i like to corner over 60km/h too. Installed a $200 rear swaybar and it was like night and day. $200 isn't a lot to ask....better than $200 on a Euro-R grill :rolleyes:

Edit: Ferrarista, you really have no clue about cars. "Handling characteristics via the chassis??" What's that suppose to mean??

[Ferrarista]

If you lower it with spring, it's best to change your shocks too. I have Eibach's with stock shocks, and it's not a good mix imo. Too bouncy, and feels like you've hit a barrier when going speed humps.

Also, wider tyres aren't always the best solution for traction. With all that body roll, and weight shifting all the way to your outside tyres, no tyres of any width will be able to keep your inside tyres on the road. Sway bars help keep your tyres on the road by reducing roll.

It really depends on what you do with your Euro. I actually like to drive over 60km/h....and i like to corner over 60km/h too. Installed a $200 rear swaybar and it was like night and day. $200 isn't a lot to ask....better than $200 on a Euro-R grill :rolleyes:

Edit: Ferrarista, you really have no clue about cars. "Handling characteristics via the chassis??" What's that suppose to mean??


lol you say i have no clue about the cars and your asking me how a good well balanced chassis can make a difference with handling? If you dont know what that is then i wont argue with it because you wont understand.

[Chris_F]

well i had my car lowered on coilovers and the handling improved -there was a reduction in body roll etc but that is mainly due to firmer spring rates and higher dampening rates than stock, not lower center of gravity (althought im sure it plays a part). Adding a sway bar, strut brace and lower arm bar after this really did make a big difference (almost as much as the coilovers did).

lowering will help obviously.. but if its just springs the stock shocks really cant cope with much more than 1.5" lowering or so ive read/been told. youll probably do more harm then good to the cars overal composure in the long run as the stock shocks begin to give way and your ride becomes bouncy etc...

[Ferrarista]

Prediction. You will disagree with me right up until the day you install the thicker rear sway bar and strut brace. I guess it depends on how you drive and corner - but you don't know what you are missing. :p When people on this forum rave about mods like the Whiteline rear sway - they are not overstating things - it is fantastic.

Anyway - back to topic - Eurosp what have you decided to do? It has been a month or two since this thread started
Paypall me the funds then i'll give you an opinion :p

[aleksandrov]

A thicker rear sway bar has a far greater difference to handlng than lowering the Euro - I know as I did the sway first.

What springs and dampers did you use to lower the car?

Also, have you tried the upgraded springs and dampers with the original swaybar? I've been advised that the swaybar only makes a big difference when the springs and dampers aren't doing their job so well i.e. that if you have a good set of sports springs and dampers the swaybar will only make a noticeable difference under very high cornering pressure.

The guys I ordered my Mugen Sports Suspension (which I'm still waiting for) from advised me to see the difference the kit makes before spending money on stuff like swaybars and strut braces. I also find it interesting that Mugen don't make any other suspension mods for the Euro apart from the Sports Suspension kit (CL9) and the adjustable coilovers (CL7). Perhaps they've decided that the chasis is stiff and well balanced enough to not need anything else?

Also worth mentioning is that both Mugen suspension options lower the car by only 25mm. Perhaps Mugen has found that lowering the Euro's centre of gravity doesn't help too much?

[Chris_F]

What springs and dampers did you use to lower the car?

Also, have you tried the upgraded springs and dampers with the original swaybar? I've been advised that the swaybar only makes a big difference when the springs and dampers aren't doing their job so well i.e. that if you have a good set of sports springs and dampers the swaybar will only make a noticeable difference under very high cornering pressure.

The guys I ordered my Mugen Sports Suspension (which I'm still waiting for) from advised me to see the difference the kit makes before spending money on stuff like swaybars and strut braces. I also find it interesting that Mugen don't make any other suspension mods for the Euro apart from the Sports Suspension kit (CL9) and the adjustable coilovers (CL7). Perhaps they've decided that the chasis is stiff and well balanced enough to not need anything else?

Also worth mentioning is that both Mugen suspension options lower the car by only 25mm. Perhaps Mugen has found that lowering the Euro's centre of gravity doesn't help too much?

i had my coilovers put on before my sway bar and strut bar. The really do make a difference toward the cars limit and generally speaking the car is flatter and more controlled because of them. Because the coilovers are setup with a more sporty bias compared with the stock suspension the bars probably aren't working as hard, but yea you do still notice a difference.

I think the reason the mugen suspension only lowers the car 25mm is because that's all the stock shocks can really take. At the end of the day it's always better to get well matched springs and shocks or coilovers than just lowering springs.

Sway bar + strut bar mods come highly reccomended from me - whiteline sway bar is only 200 bucks or so brand new. give it a try i doubt you'll regret it

[Slugoid]

lol you say i have no clue about the cars and your asking me how a good well balanced chassis can make a difference with handling? If you dont know what that is then i wont argue with it because you wont understand.

Chassis affect the car's rigidity, weight, safety and overall strength. It has very little in how the car handles directly. Even with a well balanced chassis, if you have leaf springs then it's not gonna help handling. On the contrary, improvement in suspension can improve handling even if the chassis isn't all that well balanced. See what will happen if you replace the whole suspension of the S2000, which has a very well balanced chassis, with suspension from a Civic GLi.

Chassis doesn't give me any feedback, other than rigidity. Suspension gives you most of the feedback.

[aleksandrov]

i had my coilovers put on before my sway bar and strut bar. The really do make a difference toward the cars limit and generally speaking the car is flatter and more controlled because of them. Because the coilovers are setup with a more sporty bias compared with the stock suspension the bars probably aren't working as hard, but yea you do still notice a difference.

I think the reason the mugen suspension only lowers the car 25mm is because that's all the stock shocks can really take. At the end of the day it's always better to get well matched springs and shocks or coilovers than just lowering springs.

Sway bar + strut bar mods come highly reccomended from me - whiteline sway bar is only 200 bucks or so brand new. give it a try i doubt you'll regret it

The non-adjustable Mugen Sports suspension kit is not just springs, but a matched set of springs and shocks. The adjustables are COILOVERS. Both alternatives lower the car by only 25mm. As far as I know, Mugen does not sell lowering springs alone i.e. without matched shocks.

I've got a Whiteline swaybar and Whiteline front and rear strut braces on my Integra LS, which I put on AFTER installing Eibach Pro Kit springs and Koni Yellow shocks. The bar and braces did make a difference to the cornering even at moderately high speeds, but the LS has more inherent chasis flex than the Euro and the Eibach springs are progressive rate, so they deliberately allow for body roll at initial compression. The point my 'expert advisor' was making about the Mugen set-up, which has fixed rate springs, is that it is so well sorted that, along with the inherent stiffness and balance of the Euro chasis, it makes upgraded swaybars and strut braces somewhat redundant for the street at anything but extreme cornering speeds.

Btw, I should note that the stiffness produced on my LS by the upgraded rear swaybar and front and rear strut braces can be quite a hinderance to roadholding on rough corners. This was especially apparent once I installed the strut braces, which was after the swaybar.

[aleksandrov]

Chassis affect the car's rigidity, weight, safety and overall strength. It has very little in how the car handles directly. Even with a well balanced chassis, if you have leaf springs then it's not gonna help handling. On the contrary, improvement in suspension can improve handling even if the chassis isn't all that well balanced. See what will happen if you replace the whole suspension of the S2000, which has a very well balanced chassis, with suspension from a Civic GLi.

Chassis doesn't give me any feedback, other than rigidity. Suspension gives you most of the feedback.

I suspect you are quite wrong. Professional testers constantly refer to chasis feedback. The suspension and the 'base' chasis work together. In fact, the effects of swaybars and springs are often referred to as chasis characteristics i.e. they are considered to be (bolt-on) parts of the chasis.

[BiLL|z0r]

Btw, I should note that the stiffness produced on my LS by the upgraded rear swaybar and front and rear strut braces can be quite a hinderance to roadholding on rough corners. This was especially apparent once I installed the strut braces, which was after the swaybar.

That's an interesting comment and well worth considering for any1 upgrdaing the handling. My old car suffered very badly from road holding on rough corners and I was close to getting a strut brace and rear sway bar, lucky I didn't.

[yfin]

The point my 'expert advisor' was making about the Mugen set-up, which has fixed rate springs, is that it is so well sorted that, along with the inherent stiffness and balance of the Euro chasis, it makes upgraded swaybars and strut braces somewhat redundant for the street at anything but extreme cornering speeds.

Hey - my set up is as close to your proposed Mugen set up as anyone else on this forum. Same drop, springs and shocks made by Showa, etc. Totally fine by me if you believe swaybars and strut braces are redundant if you just change springs and shocks. The only problem with this view is some of us have tried and tested these changes and know the difference they can make in daily driving - not just extreme cornering.

It is strange that the people in this post who are "so so" or questioning the benefits of a strut brace and sway bar are the people who do not have these mods on the Euro. Even the comment amount the sway bar re "road holding on rough corners" - irrelevant IMO as the comment was not made about the mod on the Euro. Different cars, different handling characteristics.

[aleksandrov]

Hey - my set up is as close to your proposed Mugen set up as anyone else on this forum. Same drop, springs and shocks made by Showa, etc.

Are you the same person who recently stated that you do not know what the spring and damping rates are on your suspension? If so, surely you don't think that the drop height and name of manufacturer are enough to conclude that the set up is as close to the Mugen SS "as anyone on this forum"?


Totally fine by me if you believe swaybars and strut braces are redundant if you just change springs and shocks.

Where did I say that I believe it? I merely shared what somebody else had suggested.


The only problem with this view is some of us have tried and tested these changes and know the difference they can make in daily driving - not just extreme cornering.

It is strange that the people in this post who are "so so" or questioning the benefits of a strut brace and sway bar are the people who do not have these mods on the Euro.

The person who made the suggestion that with the Mugen Sports Suspension the Euro does not have much to gain from swaybars and strut braces in other than very high cornering speeds repairs and modifies cars for a living, specialising in Honda, and has apparently done about half a dozen suspension upgrades on Euros.

Also, I wonder whether you missed the point as to why Mugen have decided not to make any suspension mods for the Euro other than the SS kit and the alternative adjustable coilovers? Is it because they have failed to adequately consider what swaybars and strut braces could do for the Euro?


Even the comment amount the sway bar re "road holding on rough corners" - irrelevant IMO as the comment was not made about the mod on the Euro. Different cars, different handling characteristics.

The comment was very relevant, even if you might have missed the relevance.

Firstly, there was a post suggesting that the chasis minus the suspension mods does not affect road-holding. When you speak of "different cars different handling characteristics" I presume you mean that the same 'bolt-on" (springs, shocks, bars, braces etc) suspension bits will have a different effect on different cars depending on the base chasis. That point was made implicitly in my post, with the aim of saying that it is not only the springs, shocks, bars, braces that affect handling, but also the base chasis characteristics that affect roadholding.

Secondly, stiffening up the chasis and suspension TOO MUCH can have a detrimental effect on the rough road cornering of ANY car. This is obviously something worth considering when upgrading bars, springs, shocks and adding braces to any car, if you want to make sure you strike a good balance. You've obviously struck the right balance on your car - at least for your taste and conditions. On my Integra, the result is awesome handling on smooth roads at the expense of lack of cornering composure on rough or uneven surfaces. It is more than reasonable for me to be cautious about going down the same road when considering upgrades for the Euro, which is the main reason why I am engaging in this discussion.

My question to you, which I posed previously, is have you tried your upgraded shocks and springs with the standard swaybar and without the strut brace?

[yfin]

aleksandrov- sorry I can't be bothered responding to everything in your post. I am not saying my suspension is the same as your wiz bang amazing Mugen SS. I am saying my configuration is as close as you will find on this forum. As for your Mugen expert - if he was so good and experienced in all things Euro - he would tell you the $200 thicker sway bar is a great mod for the money. Better bang for buck than your suspension kit. Lower your Euro as much as you like - dump it on its ass - you are still going to get plenty of body roll around corners.

And who gives what Mugen does in its development? You are suggesting that because mugen doesn't have a particular modification - other manufacturer's must be wasting their time? That is ridiculous. Long bow to draw.

[Ferrarista]

I suspect you are quite wrong. Professional testers constantly refer to chasis feedback. The suspension and the 'base' chasis work together. In fact, the effects of swaybars and springs are often referred to as chasis characteristics i.e. they are considered to be (bolt-on) parts of the chasis.
Dude, like i said before there is no point explaining it because they simply wont get it even if you tried. Its one of those things that you either know or dont and it usually stems from a great knowledge of motor racing.

[aleksandrov]

...I am not saying my suspension is the same as your wiz bang amazing Mugen SS....
If you weren't so overly touchy about your car and its mods you might be able to see the substance of my post.

It's unfortunate that you've chosen to take an adversarial approach to this discussion, but I am happy to oblige.


I am saying my configuration is as close as you will find on this forum. As for your Mugen expert - if he was so good and experienced in all things Euro - he would tell you the $200 thicker sway bar is a great mod for the money.

Firstly, where did I suggest he was a MUGEN expert? Secondly, while I don't know exactly how much of an expert he is, I know enough to be certain that he has more expertise in tuning (Honda) suspensions than anybody that's posted on this thread. Whether you feel comfortable with accepting that fact is of no particular concern to me.

As far as the $200 Whiteline swaybar, he was good and experienced enough to tell me that it's much heavier than Japanese makes, like Swift for instance, and that Whiteline's development budget, manufacturing and quality control standards are well below Honda's standards and below the key JDM tuners' budgets and standards. He was also experienced enough to tell me that no reputable Honda tuner in Japan disrupts the fine balance of the Euro by increasing the diameter of the rear swaybar by 4mm (or more) while retaining the standard front bar, and that such half-way measures as designed to cater to people who want to get something for nothing and end up gaining one thing while sacrificing another.


Better bang for buck than your suspension kit.
How could you even know if it's better bang for buck than your own springs-and-shocks kit, considering that you don't seem to have tried your kit with the standard swaybar and no strut brace?

Btw, it might be of interest to some that the Australian distributor for KW suspensions (reputable German maker that's only starting to enter the Australian market) also suggested to me that bigger swaybars and strut braces only produce a significant improvement for the street if the springs and shocks aren't doing the handling job very well. He added that building an ultra-stiff car might be great for smooth race tracks, but can be detrimental to handling on imperfect roads. He also recommended against changing the rear swaybar without changing the front swaybar to match, unless you are trying to cure an imbalanced car. His view was that the Euro is definitely not an imbalanced car and that increasing the diameter of the rear bar by 4mm (which is what I believe Whiteline does) while retaining the standard front bar will make it imbalanced. It seems that Eibach is another German suspension company that agrees, since they make a a front-and-rear swaybar kit for the TSX/Euro, but will not sell the rear without the front or vice versa.


Lower your Euro as much as you like - dump it on its ass - you are still going to get plenty of body roll around corners.
Was that directed at me? I guess you missed the part where I suggested that lowering doesn't do much for body roll, huh?


And who gives what Mugen does in its development?
Mugen is to Honda something like what AMG and Brabus are to Mercedes. Do you really think that any other aftermarket company, especially Whiteline, would have spent as much time, effort and expertise as Mugen in developing the Euro suspension for the street?


You are suggesting that because mugen doesn't have a particular modification - other manufacturer's must be wasting their time?
Of course they are not wasting their time. For one, they are making money from the stuff they sell, especially from people who want to play racers on non-racing roads and at non-racing speeds.

What I am quite certain of though is that Mugen has much more of a reputation (for improving Hondas for the street) to uphold than Whiteline and other after-market brands have. It also has greater pressure not to ruin Honda's enormous engineering input. And that should make any thoughtful person question why they've chosen not to make swaybars and strut braces for the Euro.

[Chris_F]

ferrarista, aleksandrov - i can defintiely see your logic and i agree with you on some points, HOWEVER, yfin (and myself for that matter) are speaking from first hand experience. To be honest it doesn't bother me how much "great knowledge of motor racing" you have or how many supposed "experts" you have confirmed your theories with i'm sticking to my opinion that the addition of a sway bar makes a noticable improvement, try it for yourself you'll see... is it really that hard to believe? c'mon.

whiteline sway bar is 18mm which is 3mm thicker than stock i think.

i dont think anyone on this forum can profess to know more about the "fine balance" and inner workings of the euro than any other, this discussion has become very opinion based

one of our members, baboo also use to track his euro regurlarly and i've spoken to him about the various bracing bars he once had on his car and according to him it helped his lap times and reduced body roll around corners... you cant argue with that

[aleksandrov]

ferrarista, aleksandrov - i can defintiely see your logic and i agree with you on some points, HOWEVER, yfin (and myself for that matter) are speaking from first hand experience. To be honest it doesn't bother me how much "great knowledge of motor racing" you have or how many supposed "experts" you have confirmed your theories with i'm sticking to my opinion that the addition of a sway bar makes a noticable improvement, try it for yourself you'll see... is it really that hard to believe? c'mon. and since when did mugen become god :confused:?

The reason I raised the points was because I wanted to get other people's views on them. I appreciate your view that the upgraded rear swaybar does improve the handling even if you already have a good upgraded coilover set. But anybody who has not tried the coilover kit in question with the standard rear swaybar is logically not in a position to make that point and be taken seriously.

As far as Mugen being 'God', there really is no call for dramatising things. No sensible and informed person would deny that Mugen is a more significant authority when it comes to tuning Hondas than Whiteline is, and that it has a reputation for excellence that it can't afford to tarnish by selling something that won't pass rigorous testing by those in the know or that won't match or exceed Honda's engineering excellence.

[aleksandrov]

one of our members, baboo also use to track his euro regurlarly and i've spoken to him about the various bracing bars he once had on his car and according to him it helped his lap times and reduced body roll around corners... you cant argue with that

Why do you even imply that I would want to argue with that? I've already said, or at least inferred, more than once that bracing bars and sway bars are beneficial for track work and at very high speed cornering on smooth roads (which is what most tracks are) generally. Did you miss that?

Did you also miss my point that what is beneficial on the track (or smooth roads generally) can often be detrimental on regular (uneven and/or rough) roads? It's really not a novel idea. If you read Wheels and Motor reviews that are based on comparative road and track testing you will find that it's quite an elementary concept.

[Chris_F]

the reason i decided to "dramatise things" as you put it is because of a previous comment like this - "But anybody who has not tried the coilover kit in question with the standard rear swaybar is logically not in a position to make that point and be taken seriously."

I believe i can be taken seriously when i say that a thicker sway bar will also help the mugen coilovers. Baboo had some very track orientated zeal coilovers which are now on Matell's car and they have very firm spring rates, firmer than the mugen coilovers you've mentioned. All i'm suggesting is, that if a sway bar can improve a car with track orientated (and very expensive/highly respected brand) of coilover then there is absoloutely no reason as to why it wouldnt help with the mugen susspension aswell (especially given its softer spring rates).

maybe you prefer how the car handles without a swaybar, and maybe the tuners you speak of do to and i respect that. but when it comes to body roll there is no denying that at the very limit (as it would be driven around a track) a sway bar is going to keep your car flatter.

[Chris_F]

i just read your posts in a bit more detail (about road surfaces etc).... maybe a swaybar and bracing mods arent suitable for the rougher roads. i assumed you were implying they weren't beneficial at all.

in saying that i still think a sway bar like the whiteline bar which is only a few mm thicker than stock could be suitable for the majority of road conditions. its probably not the best idea to be taking corners on roads that are very rough at higher speeds anyway.

[Ferrarista]

Well the fact of the matter remains this, the Type S in the UK lapped quicker than a Volvo S60R which nearly had double the HP, they put this down to the chassis and standard suspension equiptment of the car.

My point is this, Honda have pumped alot of money into the the car. Stock wise, its a great handling car and spending thousands of $$ on a suspension upgrade is pointless especially because of what the car is meant to be used for - end of the day its still a family saloon, some people here should have bought an ITR instead.

Look, i respect your opinion if you want to go spend money on all different parts its your cash so do so, but dont look down apon people who dont want to do it and just add lowering springs to an already great handling car.

I know its not a popular opinion but deal with it, i'll respect yours and you'll respect mine and dont underestimate the car you have, its friggen awesome as it is :)

[Chris_F]

i think that summed up this debate pretty nicely. i agree with everything you said there.

i'm not tryin to put people down that believe suspension mods aren't worth the money its sorta the other way around. a lot of members have spent significant amount of money on suspension mods and when your told by other people with no or less extensive mods that they were practically a waste of money then obvioulsy your going to get some slightly heated answers.

i'm really happy with everything i've done to the car and don't regret it at all, just as im sure you dont regret the choices you've made with your car :)

just as a point of interest i remember reading on the tsx forum that in the states the modded racing tsx's are able to outhandle the rsx-s even with a significant weight penalty.

have you seen that article on the euro vs. audi. s4 volvo s60r it compared quite favourably to them handling wise too (completely stock) it was a good read.

[Ferrarista]

i think that summed up this debate pretty nicely. i agree with everything you said there.

i'm not tryin to put people down that believe suspension mods aren't worth the money its sorta the other way around. a lot of members have spent significant amount of money on suspension mods and when your told by other people with no or less extensive mods that they were practically a waste of money then obvioulsy your going to get some slightly heated answers.

i'm really happy with everything i've done to the car and don't regret it at all, just as im sure you dont regret the choices you've made with your car :)

just as a point of interest i remember reading on the tsx forum that in the states the modded racing tsx's are able to outhandle the rsx-s even with a significant weight penalty.

have you seen that article on the euro vs. audi. s4 volvo s60r it compared quite favourably to them handling wise too (completely stock) it was a good read.


Yeah, when i read that article my respect for the Euro grew 10 fold due to their Type S is our Euro. To be able to lap quicker than the S60R and only a few seconds more than the S4 was like..wow, this thing is friggen awesome.

Sorry, i just got worked up when one member said i knew nothing about cars because i suggested that the Chassis makes a difference with handling...i had to speak out :D

[aleksandrov]

...in saying that i still think a sway bar like the whiteline bar which is only a few mm thicker than stock could be suitable for the majority of road conditions. its probably not the best idea to be taking corners on roads that are very rough at higher speeds anyway.

Roads don't need to be VERY rough for a very stiff suspension to not hold well on them. Mere camber changes in the road surface can unsettle a very stiff car. And whether you are taking the corner TOO fast relative to the surface quality depends on the suspension. On some corners, 40km feels too fast with my Integra because the stiffness causes it to lose traction (although not in a way that you 'lose' it), yet with the standard suspension on the Euro the same corner is a piece of cake at 40km. On the other hand, the Euro has no chance of matching the precision and stability at speed of the old Integra on long winding roads with decent surfaces. I'm hoping the Mugen SS will provide a good balance between the two.

[Chris_F]

Yeah, when i read that article my respect for the Euro grew 10 fold due to their Type S is our Euro. To be able to lap quicker than the S60R and only a few seconds more than the S4 was like..wow, this thing is friggen awesome.

Sorry, i just got worked up when one member said i knew nothing about cars because i suggested that the Chassis makes a difference with handling...i had to speak out images/smilies/icon_cheesygrin.gif

yea i was definitely impressed aswell hey. it kind of makes you question the reason for needing such powerful/expensive cars when aroudn the track they aren't significantly quicker. honda has definitely nailed fwd handling.

no need to apologise either i like a good debate - so much more interesting then when everyone agrees :thumbsup:.



Roads don't need to be VERY rough for a very stiff suspension to not hold well on them. Mere camber changes in the road surface can unsettle a very stiff car. And whether you are taking the corner TOO fast relative to the surface quality depends on the suspension. On some corners, 40km feels too fast with my Integra because the stiffness causes it to lose traction (although not in a way that you 'lose' it), yet with the standard suspension on the Euro the same corner is a piece of cake at 40km. On the other hand, the Euro has no chance of matching the precision and stability at speed of the old Integra on long winding roads with decent surfaces. I'm hoping the Mugen SS will provide a good balance between the two.

i agree that the roads dont need to be too rough. when i adjusted the damperning rates on the SS to a harder setting a noticed the car was more easily unsettled by bumps mid corner. but i was able to find a nice mix somehwere in the middle that gave good control and compliance over bumps. i really do agree with the majority that you have been saying and you come across as knowledgeable but we'll just have to agree to disagree on some of the finer details.

[aleksandrov]

Well the fact of the matter remains this, the Type S in the UK lapped quicker than a Volvo S60R which nearly had double the HP, they put this down to the chassis and standard suspension equiptment of the car.

My point is this, Honda have pumped alot of money into the the car. Stock wise, its a great handling car and spending thousands of $$ on a suspension upgrade is pointless especially because of what the car is meant to be used for - end of the day its still a family saloon, some people here should have bought an ITR instead...

I don't know about others, but my decision to upgrade the shocks and springs wasn't to increase lap times. It was because I prefer the driving experience of a tighter suspension that gives me a more direct feel of what the car is doing, more direct steering feel, minimal float and minimal roll. In other words, I like the driving feel of a suspension that gives me a better sense of control and connection to the road. On decent roads, I find cars with such ride characteristics to be much more 'comfortable' than a spungy, 'limo-type' ride, especially from the driver's seat. Perhaps that's because I am generally a bit of a control-freak.

Unfortunately, we have too many roads which are so crappy that it's better to feel disconnected from the road, but even the standard Euro suspension doesn't prevent such roads from annoying the crap out of me. I just hope the Mugen SS doesn't make them A LOT worse.

Perhaps the Euro is not the best car for my taste as far as ride and handling balance is concerned, but it's the best one with 4 doors that I could afford, except for the ($7,000 more expensive) Golf GTI, which had a 9 months waiting list and is not as refined overall as the Euro. $1600 (which is what the Mugen Sports Suspension kit costs) isn't much of a price to pay to get the Euro closer to what I really wanted. Even when you add the extra $1600, the car is still much better value than other similar-sized cars with similar prices.

I know the WRX is similarly priced, but its performance potential is not enough for me to overlook its lack of refinement and style compared to the Euro.

[yfin]

How could you even know if it's better bang for buck than your own springs-and-shocks kit, considering that you don't seem to have tried your kit with the standard swaybar and no strut brace?


Have you ever heard of feel? I know the difference the new suspension has made - and it has not significantly changed body roll from when it was stock set up with the sway.



And that should make any thoughtful person question why they've chosen not to make swaybars and strut braces for the Euro.

A lot of what you say is just based on what other people have told you - not first hand experience. Fact: the Acura TSX has a factory Honda strut brace. Perhaps you should explain that to Mugen and these other distributors you are talking to. Ask them why Honda did that - a waste of time for a road car?

I also believe the TSX sway is 1mm thicker than the Euro. But let me find a source for that - gotta go to work now.

[aleksandrov]

Have you ever heard of feel?
What about it?


I know the difference the new suspension has made - and it has not significantly changed body roll from when it was stock suspension with the sway.
My point was specifically about how the upgraded shocks and springs would perform with the stock bars and strut brace as compared to how they perform with the upgraded rear bar and strut brace. The reason that putting on the new shocks and springs after the rear sway bar and front strut brace made no great difference to body roll COULD easily be that the body roll was already brought down to a level similar to that which the upgraded springs and shocks alone would have brought it down to. That's not a novel idea.

Btw, what gives you the idea that no body roll equals better street handling? The right amount of body roll can actually improve road holding in certain conditions, particularly on uneven roads.


A lot of what you say is just based on what other people have told you - not first hand experience.
And a lot of what you say seems to be based on your own untested assumptions. I think it's wise to place more weight on the experience of those who have undertaken more methodical testing.


Fact: the Acura TSX/Euro has a factory Honda strut brace. Is that because it was a waste of time for Honda to fit it?

Missing the point again, are we? Does the factory Acura TSX have springs and shocks that match the rates of your upgraded springs and shocks? Why do Honda Europe and Honda Japan not sell strut braces as suspension upgrade option, like they sell upgraded springs and shocks? Why does the Euro R not have a front strut brace? Is it because Honda Japan and Honda Europe weren't insightful enough to think of something as basic and relatively cheap as the strut brace? Or is it because Japanese and Europeans are less discerning about their cars' handling than Americans are?

Btw, this is beside the point, but I wasn't aware that Acura TSX has a factory Honda strut brace. When you say factory Honda, do you mean Honda Japan or Honda/Acura USA?

I have much more faith in Honda Japan's and Mugen's engineering and performance tuning capacity than in Acura's (Honda America's) local operations. After all, just look at the handling abilities of the Honda cars that were designed in America, like the large-bodied Accord and the second Integra Type R (which was a good handler, but not up to the standards of its predecessor), compared to the purely Japanese designs. Of course, that's not to say that the front strut brace does not make a positive difference on the street with the standard springs and shocks.

And before you raise the "did they waste their time" argument again, bear in mind that I never suggested that the swaybar and front strut brace make NO difference, but only that the difference MIGHT be insiginficant for Australian street driving if you already have well sorted sports shocks and springs.

Also, considering that Acura markets the TSX/Euro as a PRESTIGE SPORTS sedan, its decision to add little VISIBLE touches like the front strut brace could have more to do with marketing than with the difference they make to handling.

[aleksandrov]

...I also believe the TSX sway is 1mm thicker than the Euro. ...

Assuming that is correct, the difference between a 1mm increase and a 4 or even 3mm increase to the diameter of the rear bar ONLY is potentially huge as far as the balance of the car is concerned.

[Sulley]

since we're all on the topic on rear sway bars, stock is 15mm, whiteline is 18mm and the comptech is 22mm.
is thicker better?i know the materials used and the weight and the structure(solid or hollow) makes a difference.
im contemplating between the whiteline and the comptech swaybar.
i believe martell has a comptech swaybar.
im wondering whats the difference between the 2 and which is more beneficial?

[eurosp]

Yfin, I have already bought the Tein Flex and the EDFC to go with, just waiting for delivery. Now I am just wondering if the ride will be as comfi as the stock suspension. I can understand the handlling will be much better with coilovers, and I also love how comfi it feels driving the Euro now.



Prediction. You will disagree with me right up until the day you install the thicker rear sway bar and strut brace. I guess it depends on how you drive and corner - but you don't know what you are missing. :p When people on this forum rave about mods like the Whiteline rear sway - they are not overstating things - it is fantastic.

Anyway - back to topic - Eurosp what have you decided to do? It has been a month or two since this thread started

[yfin]

Why do Honda Europe and Honda Japan not sell strut braces as suspension upgrade option, like they sell upgraded springs and shocks? Why does the Euro R not have a front strut brace? Is it because Honda Japan and Honda Europe weren't insightful enough to think of something as basic and relatively cheap as the strut brace? Or is it because Japanese and Europeans are less discerning about their cars' handling than Americans are?

Btw, this is beside the point, but I wasn't aware that Acura TSX has a factory Honda strut brace. When you say factory Honda, do you mean Honda Japan or Honda/Acura USA?

Also, considering that Acura markets the TSX/Euro as a PRESTIGE SPORTS sedan, its decision to add little VISIBLE touches like the front strut brace could have more to do with marketing than with the difference they make to handling.

The Acura TSX is made in Japan. And the Euro R has a factory strut brace. Or is that just for looks?


http://www.j-garage.com/pic/1/accord/7.jpg

[aleksandrov]

The Acura TSX is made in Japan.

To Acura (America) specifications? Anyhow, I asked specifically about the strut brace, rather than the car. When a car is 'Made in' a certain country, it doesn't necessarily mean that every part of it was made and/or installed in that country, but I'm sure you knew that.

Anyway, I find it interesting that you keep on emphasising my peripheral points while avoiding the substantive point. Are you really interested in the substance of this discussion or are you just trying to win an argument for the sake of it?


And the Euro R has a factory strut brace. Or is that just for looks?

Firstly, please read my posts carefully before attempting witty sarcasm. There is a difference between something being done "more for" marketing (as in to let people 'see' that the TSX does in fact offer more than the budget-oriented Euro Accord) and being done "just for looks". But I'm sure you knew that.

The last time I checked, the Euro R did not have a factory strut brace. Where did that picture come from? Is it a Euro R? What model-year is it from?

Btw, do the TSX and R have an 18mm rear swaybar with a standard front swaybar?

[madjace]

most of the handling queries have been covered but perhaps i can add something of my own experience , On my dc5 i originally bought king lowering sprins ( just for lowered looks ) i found that the car was lower but it made no difference to how fast a could take corners ( perhaps a little less body roll ) i found with this setup that at about 140 km/h the car would get a hop to it ( to the pint were it felt quite danferous ) and i had to slow down to get the car to be more stable . I then went to a set of tein HA coilovers , this got rid of the hopping and i was able to go around corners much faster , I then added whiteline adjustable front and rea sway bars and this made the biggest imrovement for cornering speeds , the car was nice and flat so this allowed me to spend countless hours adjusting the coilovers to suit my taste , unforuntely after about a year of driving the car had shaken me to bits and i got a sore back from it ( i am a sales rep and do heaps of km's ) i now own a euro luxury and dont plan on modifying the sussy at all , however based on my previous experince with modding sussy;s i would start with sway bars ...

[yfin]

The last time I checked, the Euro R did not have a factory strut brace.

Well you should check again. I have provided you with a picture of a Euro R engine bay - I am not going to spend more time on this point.



Btw, do the TSX and R have an 18mm rear swaybar with a standard front swaybar?

I haven't measured them and I don't plan to. The stock CL9 front sway is very thick - will be interesting to see a review of someone who has changed it.

[aleksandrov]

Well you should check again.
I tried, but there is only one engine bay picture of the R on the Honda Japan website and it's very narrow, so the tops of the struts are not visible, and neither is anything resembling a strut brace. I've seen other Euro R pictures in the past where it is quite clear that there is no strut brace. I've also asked a local importer of JDM Honda parts about a Euro R strut brace and he says the Euro R does not have one.


I have provided you with a picture of a Euro R engine bay -

Thanks for the photo, but as far as anybody relying only on the photo is concerned, that could well be an after-market strut brace. That's why I asked where the photo is from and what exact model it's supposed to be from. If it's too much trouble for you to answer, that's fine. But don't get your knickers in a knot when somebody inquires about the basis for your sweeping statements.



I am not going to spend more time on this point....
That's understandable, since you've already spent too much time on peripheral points while avoiding the substantive point.



I haven't measured them and I don't plan to. ...

In that case, what was the relevance of you pointing out that the TSX has a bigger rear sway bar than the Euro? Without knowing it's exact size and the size of the front bar, your comment about the TSX rear bar is totally irrelevant to the suggestion that replacing the rear swaybar alone with the 18mm Whiteline swaybar can be detrimental to the Euro's balance.

You shouldn't get so nippy when somebody questions the logic behind your statements. That's quite normal in intelligent discussions.


The stock CL9 front sway is very thick - will be interesting to see a review of someone who has changed it.

Yes it would. But bear in mind that thickness does not necessarily equal stiffness. An upgrade bar could well be the same thickness but stiffer or more progressive.

[yfin]

Picture is from here:
http://www.j-garage.com/honda/accord/euror.htm

How about you link to pictures of the CL7 without a strut brace?

As to the "substance" - I agree with you regarding Honda and Mugen development - they know plenty - but you need to keep in mind the reasons for having the Euro set up a particular way. It does not necessarily correlate to what Mugen or Honda think is absolutely best for handling. A balance is usually struck based on a lot of factors including target market, what is "safe" for the average (or bad) driver, and yes - cost. You might think a strut brace is minimal cost to Honda per vehicle - but over the production life of a car it is not insignificant. It does not mean Honda thought a strut brace is not worth while. The Euro R/TSX has extra bracing, thicker sway and different suspension for a reason. Sure some of this has to do with marketing – but more has to do with performance. The Australian market Euro is built to a relatively low price. Lets not forget that.
The fact Mugen does not sell strut braces or sway bars for the CL9 is a weak argument– it doesn't mean anything. I also disagree with your point about Eibach distributors refusing to sell a rear sway bar without the purchaser buying the front sway. That doesn't mean you need both and somehow the handling of a "finely tuned car" will be upset.Like I said – the front sway is very thick stock and you have plenty of Euro owners who have nothing but praise for the rear sway bar mod alone.

You also have owners who have much stiffer and infinitely better suspension than I do who later add the rear sway and love it (eg baboo). This should hopefully answer your argument about why I have not tested my new suspension without the whiteline bar and strut brace. I don't need to. I totally stand by my comment that the $200 Whiteline rear sway is better handling bang for buck than your $1600 suspension.


Lastly, if you think Eibach is so focused on selling products that must "go together" (eg rear and front sway sold together) so as to not upset the fine balance of the car – why do they sell springs which they say can be used with stock shocks (prokit)? That is hardly an ideal set up for a company focused on ensuring the "fine balance" is retained.

Does anyone have anything else to say about lowering the Euro - I think this thread has almost run its course...

[Chris_F]

i think all that needs to be said has been said... we'll all just have to agree to disagree on some points.

[madjace]

I will add 2 cents more , this is just my opion and is not intended to offend any one . the best way to work out what improves the performance of your car is to try different things and see hwat it does to your car , not everyone has the money to try different things so they end up on forums seeking advice on what works , unfortunatley i have noticed over the last couple of years that the advice some members give seems to be based on what brands are the coolest or what other people have said . When you do get advice from someone who has actually tried something they often seem to get flamed becuase they may not agree with what brand or advice that is trendy at the momment .

now that i have sid that i juts want to say that the euro is a great car for ride compfort which is why i would have thought most people buy them , however they are a great handling car out of the box and the chassis works extremely well on tight corners ( believe me i have tested it ) in these honda cars the chassis i believe is the most important factor given that our cars are price sesitive . if you want to get better handling out of your car i understand totally why you would want to do that , just beware that you will probably be trading off ride quality ( softness ) in order to get it , also please do some research into how suspension works either before you changethings or ( probably like most of us ) after you have spent the money based on all sorts of advice and then work out that the car is actually worse now .

seriously thats why most of us have spent so much money on our suspensions over the years , coz we didnt get it right the first time , however it did make us learn how everything worked . i tell you there is nothing sadder than spending several grand on new coilovers etc and finding the car is not better or parhaps worse , but it does make you think about what to do to set things up properly

not taking sides just adding my 2 cents worth

[aleksandrov]

Picture is from here:
http://www.j-garage.com/honda/accord/euror.htm


Thank you. I hope that wasn't too much trouble for you. I will make further enquiries to get a part number for that brace.

Btw, the fact that the Euro R in that picture does have a strut brace does not invalidate the presumption that strut braces are not ALWAYS of significant handling benefit, depending on other aspects of the chasis and suspension. There are plenty of more expensive and more sports-dedicated street cars than the Euro R that do not have strut braces.


How about you link to pictures of the CL7 without a strut brace?
If I could find it, I would have already posted it and I wouldn't have asked you for a source.


[font=Times New Roman]It does not necessarily correlate to what Mugen or Honda think is absolutely best for handling.

Of course it doesn't. But it CAN be indicative of what they think can be convincingly demonstrated to provide good balance and performance value for the road. That's why I raised the question, which you seem to have interpreted as an absolute and definitive statement on my part.


A balance is usually struck based on a lot of factors including target market, what is "safe" for the average (or bad) driver, and yes - cost. You might think a strut brace is minimal cost to Honda per vehicle - but over the production life of a car it is not insignificant.

Where did I suggest that that is what I think? Your cost argument doesn't explain why Mugen, which lives off selling performance UPGRADES for Hondas, doesn't see value in making swaybars or a strut brace for the Euro, especially given its demonstrated capacity to demand high premiums for its products from customers i.e. its capacity to pass on the cost to the customer PLUS make a substantial profit. It also doesn't explain why Honda Japan, Honda Europe and even Acura don't offer upgraded swaybars (or a strut brace in the case of Europe and japan) for the CL9, but they do offer the more expensive shocks and springs combination.


The Euro R/TSX has extra bracing, thicker sway and different suspension for a reason.
This point is irrelevant to what I've been saying, unless you have figures for the spring and damping rates and the front and rear swaybar diameters of the TSX.



[size=3]You also have owners who have much stiffer and infinitely better suspension than I do who later add the rear sway and love it (eg baboo).

Isn't Baboo the guy who was tracking his car? I made it clear that a very stiff set-up, including stiffer swaybars, can be of significant benefit on the track. Another point you have to keep in mind is that people who have adjustable coilovers can cure an imbalance caused by a disproportionately thicker rear swaybar by appropriate adjustment of the coilovers. Of course, the car would be closer to perfection if there was no imbalance to cure in the first place i.e. if the front and rear swaybar were well matched to each other.


I totally stand by my comment that the $200 Whiteline rear sway is better handling bang for buck than your $1600 suspension.



You might well be right, especially if you place greater emphasis on the buck than the bang. For me, I first look at how much bang I want and then for the best price available for that amount of bang. If I was to decide that bigger swaybars and a strut brace are worthy mods to the Euro for my needs, I would be looking at more solid manufacturers (as far as engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality are concerned), such as Honda (perhaps from the Type R), Mugen, Swift, Cusco etc. I know I'll have to pay more, but I have little doubt that I'll get better bang and piece of mind than with Whiteline.


[font=Times New Roman][size=3]Lastly, if you think Eibach is so focused on selling products that must "go together" (eg rear and front sway sold together) so as to not upset the fine balance of the car – why do they sell springs which they say can be used with stock shocks (prokit)?

That's a poor analogy. A better analogy would be "why do they sell Pro-Kit rear springs to go with the standard front springs or vice versa". Of course, you couldn't make that analogy, because they don't.

Also, the Pro-Kit springs are DESIGNED to work with the stock shocks, just like the Eibach rear swaybar is designed to work with the Eibach front swaybar. The Pro-Kit springs are designed for people who want to lower their car without spending too much and who aren't very demanding as far as handling is concerned. Having said that, they cannot disrupt the balance of the car. That's to be distinguished from their reduction of travel, which in turn can reduce composure on bad roads, comfort and the life of the standard shocks, which are designed on the presumption that they won't see so much compression in daily driving.

Eibach also make a more aggressive spring kit (I think it's called the Sportline), which is designed to go with more aggressive dampers.

[Chris_F]

If I was to decide that bigger swaybars and a strut brace are worthy mods to the Euro for my needs, I would be looking at more solid manufacturers (as far as engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality are concerned), such as Honda (perhaps from the Type R), Mugen, Swift, Cusco etc. I know I'll have to pay more, but I have little doubt that I'll get better bang and piece of mind than with Whiteline.

A lot of what you just said has to do with your brand perceptions. If whiteline were charging $500 for their bar and it was black and shiny with gold embossing maybe your perceptions of that particular brand would change? - I really don't see how you claim to know the relative competencies of each of the firms you mentioned in relation to their "engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality" - you percieve the japanese manafacturers to be better obviously but at the end of the day a great number of ppl on this forum have installed a whiteline swaybar and been very happy with the results IMO that's all that matters.

[yfin]

the fact that the Euro R in that picture does have a strut brace does not invalidate the presumption that strut braces are not ALWAYS of significant handling benefit, depending on other aspects of the chasis and suspension.

True - no argument but it does come stock on that car so I think it is safe to presume there is a handling benefit and it is not pure marketing.


Your cost argument doesn't explain why Mugen, which lives off selling performance UPGRADES for Hondas, doesn't see value in making swaybars or a strut brace for the Euro, especially given its demonstrated capacity to demand high premiums for its products from customers i.e. its capacity to pass on the cost to the customer PLUS make a substantial profit. It also doesn't explain why Honda Japan, Honda Europe and even Acura don't offer upgraded swaybars (or a strut brace in the case of Europe and japan) for the CL9, but they do offer the more expensive shocks and springs combination.

You focus too much on what Mugen is or isn't doing. Who really cares what they make for the CL9? And in terms of Honda - they do not appear to be huge on offering products to meet the 'aftermarket' buyers - for any of their cars.

By the way - Acura dealers sell Comptech parts in the USA for the TSX including a sway bar. If installed by the dealer it retains the Honda warranty. So Acrua does offer upgraded swaybars in USA - just not manufacturerd by Honda.



If I was to decide that bigger swaybars and a strut brace are worthy mods to the Euro for my needs, I would be looking at more solid manufacturers (as far as engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality are concerned), such as Honda (perhaps from the Type R), Mugen, Swift, Cusco etc. I know I'll have to pay more, but I have little doubt that I'll get better bang and piece of mind than with Whiteline.


That's cool - rate a product without trying it and just buy JDM. I have nothing but respect for Whiteline and their products after trying the sway bar. They also have some great technical people who are very happy to help people looking to modify their cars.

This is a good thread - some healthy discussion. I am a little surprised though that people need convincing that a thicker rear sway bar is great for the road ;) (not just the track). I haven't experienced any downsides with mine and certainly nothing detrimental to the "fine balance" of the car.

[aleksandrov]

A lot of what you just said has to do with your brand perceptions. If whiteline were charging $500 for their bar and it was black and shiny with gold embossing maybe your perceptions of that particular brand would change? - I really don't see how you claim to know the relative competencies of each of the firms you mentioned in relation to their "engineering capacity, demonstrated expertise in tuning the Euro, and manufacturing quality" - you percieve the japanese manafacturers to be better obviously but at the end of the day a great number of ppl on this forum have installed a whiteline swaybar and been very happy with the results IMO that's all that matters.

I am very well aware of Whiteline's manufacturing standards. I've been to their 'factory', I've had them do wheel allignments for me, and I've bought a rear sway bar and front and rear strut braces from them. I've read and seen plenty about the (non)approach to quality from their people. And I have enough general knowledge about cars and handling to safely conclude that any company which increases the rear swaybar diameter by about 25% or more yet retains the standard swaybar on a car with chasis balance as critically acclaimed as the Euro's is quite far from having a perfectionist approach to chasis tuning.

I've also read a few other people's experiences with Whiteline quality standards. I've had experience with genuine Honda build quality on various vehicles. I've also undertaken and completed extensive academic study of Japanese, Australian, American, German and international engineering and manufacturing standards, including those of the motor industry. I know that Australian and American standards are generally well below Japanese standards, and that even the Germans are behind the Japanese in many instances, especially when it comes to how much quality you get for each of your dollars.

I have a rough but sufficient idea of the relative development budgets of Whiteline and the Japanese manufacturers I've mentioned, including the volume of Honda tuning each of them undertakes. I've also discussed these matters with two very reputable people who specialise in repairing, rebuilding and reluctantly modifying Hondas, as well as one person who specialises in modifying Japanese cars for road and track. I might still be wrong, but my opinion will not be easily changed by one or two posters who not only are not 'expert' test drivers or automotive professionals, but who, more importantly, have failed to back their sweeping assertions with relevant comparative analysis and/or logical arguments. I'm sure you'll find that quite reasonable. :)

[yfin]

aleksandrov - fact is you have not tried these mods on your Euro. You don't even have your Mugen suspension yet. How about you reserve your judgement until you try it. And just because Mugen doesn't make something - it doesn't correlate to it being a waste of time for the road.

We are all just hacks here who enjoy our cars. No one I know here claims to be a professional road tester for McLaren or Ferrari. Some of us can comment, however, as to the impact of various modifications to our vehicles based on subjective opinion. That should be enough for most of us. Totally fine by me if you think a sway bar alone (no other suspension mods) is detrimental to the Euro on the road. Just try it first. :thumbsup:

[aleksandrov]

aleksandrov - fact is you have not tried these mods on your Euro. You don't even have your Mugen suspension yet. How about you reserve your judgement until you try it.
What JUDGMENT would that be, exactly?


And just because Mugen doesn't make something - it doesn't correlate to it being a waste of time for the road.

Where did I say that it does? You are either reading my posts selectively to suit your pre-determined and overly personalised arguments or you are struggling with logical deduction.

To raise the prospect that A could be indicative of B and to give specific reasons for saying that is not the same as saying that A guarantees B. :)

[Chris_F]

this is just going around in circles guys :rolleyes:

[aaronng]

Yeah. Time to close this thread before we have to call the fire brigade.

BTW, the TSX comes with a stock front strut tower bar exactly like the one in the CL7 pic. So it's put on in Japan by Honda, not by Acura. And the TSX was designed to be stiffer than the EuroR by 5%. Maybe they achieved that stiffness through the front tower bar and the thicker rear sway, so that they did not compromise ride quality through the use of stiffer springs.

Source: http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?page_number=5&article_id=75679


In a stunning reversal of Honda/Acura convention, I learned through speaking with Mr. Tsuto Sasaki (Chief Engineer and Deputy LPL responsible for the Body and Chassis of the TSX) that the suspension is actually 5% stiffer than the Japanese and European Accord Type R models.

[Chris_F]

there's also the argument that it's a marketing ploy. Generally the american market sees a car as "sporty" if the ride is noticeably firm. It may serve no real function other than that and also to cope with the TSX's extra weight?

[aaronng]

If it was a marketing ploy, then I would have expected them to use those flashy bars that you can actually see clearly when you open the hood. This one is such an understatement. Anyway, here are the TSX's front strut bar and rear sway dimensions from Acura's site:

Stabilizer Bars, diameter (front/rear)
25.4 mm x 4.5 mm tubular / 15.0 mm solid

[aleksandrov]

Yeah. Time to close this thread before we have to call the fire brigade.

BTW, the TSX comes with a stock front strut tower bar exactly like the one in the CL7 pic. So it's put on in Japan by Honda, not by Acura. And the TSX was designed to be stiffer than the EuroR by 5%. Maybe they achieved that stiffness through the front tower bar and the thicker rear sway, so that they did not compromise ride quality through the use of stiffer springs.

Source: http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?page_number=5&article_id=75679

Since when is there a Japanese and EUROPEAN Type R model? As far as I know, the Euro R is Japan only. Europe has an Accord S, which is not as sporty as the Euro R (I believe it has the same suspension as the regular Aussie Euro). So which model is the TSX 5% stiffer than? The Jap Euro R or the European Accord S? Could this guy have confused the CL9 with the CL7?

And the Euro R and TSX braces on those pictures don't look the same to me. The TSX seems to be a three-piece, with two end pieces welded to the main piece, while the Euro R looks like a one-piece.

Btw, I'm curious as to why Comptech and DC would make front strut braces for the TSX if it already has a factory brace. How much of a market could there be for that?

[aleksandrov]

If it was a marketing ploy, then I would have expected them to use those flashy bars that you can actually see clearly when you open the hood. ...

Not at all. That would take away the car's sense of class.

[aaronng]

Since when is there a Japanese and EUROPEAN Type R model? As far as I know, the Euro R is Japan only. Europe has an Accord S, which is not as sporty as the Euro R (I believe it has the same suspension as the regular Aussie Euro). So which model is the TSX 5% stiffer than? The Jap Euro R or the European Accord S? Could this guy have confused the CL9 with the CL7?

Btw, I'm curious as to why Comptech and DC would make front strut braces for the TSX if it already has a factory brace. How much of a market could there be for that?
Don't shoot the messenger. That's what was stated in the article. I think they are comparing it to the CL7 EuroR in Japan and the CL1 Type R in UK.

2.4L Accords around the world.
Japan: Accord 24TL, 24TL + Sports Package, 24T, 24S.
UK: Accord 2.4 Executive, 2.4 Type S
USA: TSX
Australia: 2004/05 base model, 2004 luxury, 2005 luxury

Accord 24TL = Accord Euro 2004 Luxury = 2.4 Executive
24TL + sports package = 2005 Luxury
24T = 2004/2005 base
2.4 Type S = ???
TSX = ???

Type-S engine bay (look, no strut bar)
http://www.supercarsite.net/images/cars/honda/accord_type_s_04.jpg

TSX engine bay (stock, comes with strut bar)
http://www.familycar.com/RoadTests/AcuraTSX/Images/Engine.jpg

From the look of things, the Type-S's engine bay is same as the Accord Euro's. The TSX is slightly different, even the AC lines are routed differently. And from the photo above, it is a one piece like the EuroR's, also connected to 2 of the strut tower bolts.

[Chris_F]

i only meant marketing ploy in relation to the stiffer spring rates, coz americans seem to prefer a firmer ride. its probably more to do with the cars extra weight however. compared to commodores/falcons and other big cars in america the tsx/euro is already compartively "firm".

[yfin]

Btw, I'm curious as to why Comptech and DC would make front strut braces for the TSX if it already has a factory brace. How much of a market could there be for that?

With most of these bars you can install them in addition to the factory strut - eg similar thing done on the Euro R here:

How much of a difference it makes I don't know but there appears to be a market for it.

http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/7/web/619000-619999/619706_10_full.jpg

[aleksandrov]

Don't shoot the messenger.

Whose shooting? You referred to an article for authority. I pointed out that the author didn't seem to know what exactly he was talking about.


I think they are comparing it to the CL7 EuroR in Japan and the CL1 Type R in UK.

Why would they do that, especially without mentioning that they are talking about two different generations of cars? Isn't the CL1 a previous generation car?


Type-S engine bay (look, no strut bar)

TSX engine bay (stock, comes with strut bar)

What's your point?


And from the photo above, it is a one piece like the EuroR's, also connected to 2 of the strut tower bolts.

The photo above doesn't give much of a view.

Go to the article link you posted earlier and click on the previous page hyperlink at the bottom of the article. On the previous page there is a close-up shot of the TSX engine bay, which can be enlarged and shows clearly that where the bend is at the upper left end of the bar there is a welding point between two different pieces. Then look at the Euro R picture that Yfin posted a link to and you will see that there is no such welding point on the Euro R. You will also notice that the bends in the R bar are much more rounded than the 'bends' on the TSX (which are more like corners) and that the TSX bar seems to reach slightly higher.

[aleksandrov]

With most of these bars you can install them in addition to the factory strut - eg similar thing done on the Euro R here:
How much of a difference it makes I don't know but there appears to be a market for it.


Thanks. That's very interesting and quite odd.

Btw, the two independent small bars that go from each strut to the rear of the engine bay frame on the Aus Euro/European Accord S are substitutes for a full strut-to-strut bar. They probably wouldn't make the front end quite as stiff as a strut-to-strut bar though.

[aaronng]

Whose shooting? You referred to an article for authority. I pointed out that the author didn't seem to know what exactly he was talking about.
Now why would I point an article out for authority? I gave you the article so that you knew where I was spouting my bullshit from. Which would you prefer? Me stating that the TSX is stiffer than the EuroR? Or quoting someone who HAS spoken to a Honda engineer regarding it? It's like you saying that the guys from whom you ordered your Mugen Sports Suspension from telling you that "Whiteline's development budget, manufacturing and quality control standards are well below Honda's standards and below the key JDM tuners' budgets and standards." Now I hope that your source did speak to someone in Whiteline who told them that they do not spend as much as Honda or the JDM tuning houses. Otherwise that statement is just the opinion of the seller or he is trying to disuade you from buying Whiteline instead.



Why would they do that, especially without mentioning that they are talking about two different generations of cars? Isn't the CL1 a previous generation car?
I don't know. I was just guessing. I'd have to be Jeff Palmer nor Mr. Tsuto Sasaki to know if they were talking about the CL1 or CL7 or both. Too bad I'm not them. :)



What's your point?
Awww... didn't you want to see the pretty engine bay of the Type-S? It was a bonus pic that comes free with the pic of the TSX engine bay. :)



The photo above doesn't give much of a view.

Go to the article link you posted earlier and click on the previous page hyperlink at the bottom of the article. On one of the previous pages there is a close-up shot of the TSX engine bay, which shows clearly that what looks like a bend on the left side of the bar is in fact the welding point between two different pieces. Then look at the Euro R picture that Yfin posted a link to and you will see the difference.
I see what you mean. The TSX's bar is welded on the left side (or right if you are in the car) so that it angles upwards to clear something behind the engine. Alright, so what does this difference signify?

[aaronng]

Thanks. That's very interesting and quite odd.

Btw, the two independent small bars that go from each strut to the rear of the engine bay frame on the Aus Euro/European Accord S are substitutes for a full strut-to-strut bar. They probably wouldn't make the front end quite as stiff as a strut-to-strut bar though.
Yeah, you'd probably be right on it being not as stiff. I've been trying to find EuroR pics with a closer look at the strut bar but the aircond pipes are always in the way. Like this: http://www12.plala.or.jp/euro-r/img194.jpg

[aleksandrov]

Now why would I point an article out for authority? I gave you the article so that you knew where I was spouting my bullshit from.

What exactly was your point of using the source, especially since you didn't state that it was bullshit until somebody else picked up its errors?


Which would you prefer? Me stating that the TSX is stiffer than the EuroR? Or quoting someone who HAS spoken to a Honda engineer regarding it?
I have no preference. The statement was nonsensical either way. The guy who claimed to quote a Honda engineer was obviously lying or misquoting him, since no Honda engineer would make a statement based on such an erroneous premise.


It's like you saying that the guys from whom you ordered your Mugen Sports Suspension from telling you that "Whiteline's development budget, manufacturing and quality control standards are well below Honda's standards and below the key JDM tuners' budgets and standards."
Except that I didn't say that I learnt that from guys I ordered the suspension from. I guess there is more than one person around here with reading comprehension problems.


Now I hope that your source did speak to someone in Whiteline who told them that they do not spend as much as Honda or the JDM tuning houses. Otherwise that statement is just the opinion of the seller or he is trying to disuade you from buying Whiteline instead.

It doesn't take a mechanic's opinion to figure that out. All it takes is some basic understanding of business, basic comparative knowledge of international automotive engineering and manufacturing stanadards, of the Australian automotive market ,of the fact that the Japanese market for modifying Japanese cars is much more competitive, and of the fact that Whiteline is essentially a small business, despite the fact that it sells suspension mods for just about every car on the Australian market. Visiting the Whiteline 'factory', which I have personally done, also helps. Anybody with such basic knowledge and understanding would find the suggestion that Whiteline spends as much as Mugen, Spoon, Cusco, Swift etc. on developing Hondas laughable. And any suggestion that Whiteline might spend as much or more on developing a Honda car than what the automotive giant that is Honda spends is on the border between being outrageously laughable and sad.


I don't know. I was just guessing.
A 'guess' without reference to a factual premise and without logic is an uneducated guess, which makes it quite worthless, especially if you are trying to give credibility to a source that has compromised its own credibility.


I see what you mean. The TSX's bar is welded on the left side (or right if you are in the car) so that it angles upwards to clear something behind the engine. Alright, so what does this difference signify?

Perhaps you should tell me what it signifies, since you were trying to convince us that the Euro R and TSX have the same strut brace, when they clearly do not.

[aaronng]

What exactly was your point of using the source, especially since you didn't state that it was bullshit until somebody else picked up its errors?
Well, why don't you tell vtec.net's Jeff Palmer that you think it is bullshit. I didn't say it was bullshit. I gave the link to that article and the quote because he had spoke to Honda's engineer and that was his interpretation of his interview. Which CL models that he was talking about, well, I would be inclined to think CL7. Who would compare CL1 and CL7 suspension stiffness if they were different 2 different chassis? I would give more credibility to vtec.net than to the things that you are claiming here about whiteline.



I have no preference. The statement was nonsensical either way. The guy who claimed to quote a Honda engineer was obviously lying or misquoting him, since no Honda engineer would make a statement based on such an erroneous premise.
Oh.. now you're claiming that he is lying? Wow.. :confused:



Except that I didn't say that the guys I ordered the suspension told me that. I guess there is more than one person around here with reading comprehension problems.
I do hope that I have reading problems. Otherwise you would be the one living in a world of delusion. At least I can fix my reading problems.



The guys I ordered my Mugen Sports Suspension (which I'm still waiting for) from advised me to see the difference the kit makes before spending money on stuff like swaybars and strut braces. I also find it interesting that Mugen don't make any other suspension mods for the Euro apart from the Sports Suspension kit (CL9) and the adjustable coilovers (CL7). Perhaps they've decided that the chasis is stiff and well balanced enough to not need anything else?



The point my 'expert advisor' was making about the Mugen set-up, which has fixed rate springs, is that it is so well sorted that, along with the inherent stiffness and balance of the Euro chasis, it makes upgraded swaybars and strut braces somewhat redundant for the street at anything but extreme cornering speeds.

Ok, from these 2 posts that you made, I understand that your 'expert advisor' is the one that you ordered your Mugen suspension from. That I'm sure 100%




The person who made the suggestion that with the Mugen Sports Suspension the Euro does not have much to gain from swaybars and strut braces in other than very high cornering speeds repairs and modifies cars for a living, specialising in Honda, and has apparently done about half a dozen suspension upgrades on Euros.



Firstly, where did I suggest he was a MUGEN expert? Secondly, while I don't know exactly how much of an expert he is, I know enough to be certain that he has more expertise in tuning (Honda) suspensions than anybody that's posted on this thread. Whether you feel comfortable with accepting that fact is of no particular concern to me.

As far as the $200 Whiteline swaybar, he was good and experienced enough to tell me that it's much heavier than Japanese makes, like Swift for instance, and that Whiteline's development budget, manufacturing and quality control standards are well below Honda's standards and below the key JDM tuners' budgets and standards. He was also experienced enough to tell me that no reputable Honda tuner in Japan disrupts the fine balance of the Euro by increasing the diameter of the rear swaybar by 4mm (or more) while retaining the standard front bar, and that such half-way measures as designed to cater to people who want to get something for nothing and end up gaining one thing while sacrificing another.

Now in post #46, you said that the 'person' made the suggestion that the Euro does not have much to gain from sway bars and strut braces if it had a mugen sports suspension. Up to here I'm 100% certain that you are still talking about the same person.

Then in post #49, you rebutt some other posters comment about the person being a Mugen expert and then after that you say "he was good and experienced enough to tell me that it's much heavier than Japanese makes, like Swift for instance, and that Whiteline's development budget, manufacturing and quality control standards are well below Honda's standards and below the key JDM tuners' budgets and standards."

Please tell me that in these 4 posts that you are talking about the same person. If you claim that they are different people, then I guess the problem with my reading is so severe that I should not follow-up on any of your posts in the future.



It doesn't take a mechanic's opinion to figure that out. All it takes is some basic understanding of business, basic comparative knowledge of international automotive engineering and manufacturing stanadards, of the Australian automotive market ,of the fact that the Japanese market for modifying Japanese cars is much more competitive, and of the fact that Whiteline is essentially a small business, despite the fact that it sells suspension mods for just about every car on the Australian market. Visiting the Whiteline 'factory', which I have personally done, also helps. Anybody with such basic knowledge and understanding would find the suggestion that Whiteline spends as much as Mugen, Spoon, Cusco, Swift etc. on developing Hondas laughable. And any suggestion that Whiteline might spend as much or more on developing a Honda car than what the automotive giant that is Honda spends is on the border between being outrageously laughable and sad.
That's a pretty strong sweeping statement you are making there. You do know that in terms of rear swaybars for the Euro, Whiteline spends more money than Mugen, right? Since Whiteline has developed one while Mugen hasn't (i.e. has spent $0 on development of the rear sway).



A 'guess' without reference to a factual premise and without logic is an uneducated guess, which makes it quite worthless, especially if you are trying to give credibility to a source that has compromised its own credibility.

Isn't your statement above


All it takes is some basic understanding of business, basic comparative knowledge of international automotive engineering and manufacturing stanadards, of the Australian automotive market ,of the fact that the Japanese market for modifying Japanese cars is much more competitive, and of the fact that Whiteline is essentially a small business, despite the fact that it sells suspension mods for just about every car on the Australian market. also a guess without reference to a factual premise and just based on your basic understanding of business, basic comparative knowledge of international automotive engineering and manufacturing stanadards, of the Australian automotive market ,of the fact that the Japanese market for modifying Japanese cars is much more competitive?



Perhaps you should tell me what it signifies, since you were trying to convince us that the Euro R and TSX have the same strut brace, when they clearly do not.
I did say that they had the same strut brace. And yes I was proven wrong by the photo of the strut brace that was welded for a different angle in the TSX photo that you pointed out. So I'm asking you, what does it signify. Does it make the TSX strut less stiff? Does it compromise the durability because of the weld? Gee, if I could answer that, then why would I be asking your opinion on it? I have not read articles on welding up a strut brace.

That's enough attacking from me for a lifetime. I don't want to end up being a bitter person. :)

[aleksandrov]

...Which CL models that he was talking about, well, I would be inclined to think CL7.

And again, your inclination is poorly founded. It is more likely that the person who wrote the article was ignorant of the difference between the CL7 and CL9 at the time he wrote it, otherwise he wouldn't have spoken of a Japanese AND European Euro R.

Besides, the idea that Honda would make the luxury-oriented 'sports' sedan that is the TSX stiffer than the much more overtly sporty R, which is deprived of luxuries like leather interior, and has Recaro semi-racing seats, Momo leather steering wheel, and a peaky and very loud 2.0 engine, is quite illogical on its own.


Who would compare CL1 and CL7 suspension stiffness if they were different 2 different chassis?
Since you are the one that suggested that that is what they were doing, why don't you tell me?



I would give more credibility to vtec.net than to the things that you are claiming here about whiteline.
You are quite entitled to. But don't go telling me that I base my judgments on perceptions while you base yours on fact. You certainly know less about me than I do about Whiteline and vtec.net, not to mention the fact that the lack of credibility of the vtec.net article is quite apparent even for the birds and bees.


Oh.. now you're claiming that he is lying? Wow.. :confused:

No, I said he is EITHER lying OR misquoting. I therefore clearly inferred that I am not in a position to make a definitive claim. There's a big difference. You really do need to polish up your reading comprehension skills.

In any case, what is important is that the statement he attributed to a Honda engineer could not be true, since it doesn't make sense and a Honda engineer would not be clueless enough to make it.


I do hope that I have reading problems.
It's really not something to aspire to.


At least I can fix my reading problems.
You'll need to try a lot harder. Start by reading things in their proper context.


Ok, from these 2 posts that you made, I understand that your 'expert advisor' is the one that you ordered your Mugen suspension from. That I'm sure 100%
What on earth is your point?


Up to here I'm 100% certain that you are still talking about the same person.
And?


Then in post #49, you rebutt some other posters comment about the person being a Mugen expert and then after that you say "he was good and experienced enough to tell me that it's much heavier than Japanese makes, like Swift for instance, and that Whiteline's development budget, manufacturing and quality control standards are well below Honda's standards and below the key JDM tuners' budgets and standards."

Please tell me that in these 4 posts that you are talking about the same person.

What if I am?

I hope you realise that you don't have to be a Mugen expert to sell and fit Mugen suspension (in addition to other brands).

And I hope you also realise that just because I say sarcastically that somebody was 'expert' enough to know about Whiteline's "development budget, manufacturing and quality control standards" being below Honda's and below key JDM tuners' does not necessarily mean that this 'expert' is the only available source for such information. In fact, if you read my other posts on this thread before trying to make smart remarks you would have realised that I did refer to other relevant sources of information.


That's a pretty strong sweeping statement you are making there. You do know that in terms of rear swaybars for the Euro, Whiteline spends more money than Mugen, right? Since Whiteline has developed one while Mugen hasn't (i.e. has spent $0 on development of the rear sway).

What the hell do you think you can prove with that statement?

Do you realise that the first thing to do when developing an existing car's suspension is to test it thoroughly and decide what it needs? Do you realise that it is possible to decide at the end of such testing that a bigger rear swaybar isn't needed? Or to 'develop' a bigger swaybar and then once you've developed a coilover set for the car to decide that the bigger swaybar is not worth producing? Do you realise that thorough testing can be a much bigger expense than simply taking Honda's swaybar, copying its shape, but increasing its diameter by 4mm and producing it with the same material and production methods that you use on all your other swaybars (for all different brands of cars)?



Isn't your statement above
also a guess without reference to a factual premise and just based on your basic understanding of business, basic comparative knowledge of international automotive engineering and manufacturing stanadards, of the Australian automotive market ,of the fact that the Japanese market for modifying Japanese cars is much more competitive?
No, but you can call it a guess if you wish. It would still be a much more educated guess than yours.



I did say that they had the same strut brace. And yes I was proven wrong by the photo of the strut brace that was welded for a different angle in the TSX photo that you pointed out. So I'm asking you, what does it signify. Does it make the TSX strut less stiff? Does it compromise the durability because of the weld? Gee, if I could answer that, then why would I be asking your opinion on it? I have not read articles on welding up a strut brace.
You made a statement that they were the same so as to prove that they are both made and fitted in Japan. Now that this statement is proven to have been false, you need other evidence to show that they are both made and fitted in Japan. You get the significance now? Of course yo do. Otherwise you would not have made the statement in the first place, right?

Btw, sorry about what you perceive as attacks but I'm only going along with the tone you've set. If you are going to try to ridicule what I've said, you better be prepared to have your own statements ridiculed when you start tripping over yourself. Don't you think that's quite fair?:)

[aaronng]

What on earth is your point?
I'm just putting to rest your claims that we have reading problems because we thought that you said the guys you ordered your Mugen suspension from were saying whiteline was not worth looking at because they don't spend as much as Mugen in development. You had said that:
Except that I didn't say that the guys I ordered the suspension told me that. I guess there is more than one person around here with reading comprehension problems.
And since I have proven that you did say that, I will not bother to follow up on that since you will just keep denying or insisting that you are right.



And?

What if I am?

I hope you realise that you don't have to be a Mugen expert to sell and fit Mugen suspension (in addition to other brands).

And I hope you also realise that just because I say sarcastically that somebody was 'expert' enough to know about Whiteline's "development budget, manufacturing and quality control standards" being below Honda's and below key JDM tuners' does not necessarily mean that this 'expert' is the only available source for such information. In fact, if you read my other posts on this thread before trying to make smart remarks you would have realised that I did refer to other relevant sources of information.
All the posts that I read were from you. All the posts that I had quoted were consecutive except for one which did not speak mugen or whiteline. I feel that I have proven enough.



What the hell do you think you can prove with that statement?

Do you realise that the first thing to do when developing an existing car's suspension is to test it thoroughly and decide what it needs? Do you realise that it is possible to decide at the end of such testing that a bigger rear swaybar isn't needed?
When people tune their cars, they tuned it to their requirements. Who are you or Mugen or Whiteline to say that my car needs a swaybar of certain stiffness? For an owner who tracks their car, they would want a stiffer swaybar, while another owner who would never track their car but wants more response would want just a slightly uprated swaybar. Everyone has their own requirements. If Whiteline's 18mm sway is insufficient, then they'll buy a stiffer one from someone else like Comptech who makes a stiffer 22mm swaybar.


Or to 'develop' a bigger swaybar and then once you've developed a coilover set for the car to decide that the bigger swaybar is not worth producing?
Coilovers are not for everyone. For most owners a shock and speing set can be sufficient. Don't be Mr. Know-it-all and tell everyone that they should use coilovers instead of shocks+springs.



Do you realise that thorough testing can be a much bigger expense than simply taking Honda's swaybar, copying its shape, but increasing its diameter by 4mm and producing it with the same material and production methods that you use on all your other swaybars (for all different brands of cars)?
You do realise that if the shape is different, it won't fit on the Euro. And everyone knows that a swaybar's stiffness depends on the thickness, material and whether it is hollow.



You made a statement that they were the same so as to prove that they are both made and fitted in Japan. Now that this statement is proven to have been false, you need other evidence to show that they are both made and fitted in Japan. You get the significance now? Of course yo do. Otherwise you would not have made the statement in the first place, right?
Why would I want to find statements to prove that they are identical now that there are photos showing that they are not? Now I know your mentality. Even if you are proven wrong, you'll just spout bullshit from another hole or twist your story to your advantage. No point wasting my time on you. I think the others have also decided this since I am the only one replying to your posts now. Goodbye.

[madjace]

i dont even know what you guys are talking about now , any way dont buy a sway bar if you dont wont too , who cares any way ..

[aleksandrov]

I'm just putting to rest your claims that we have reading problems because we thought that you said the guys you ordered your Mugen suspension from were saying whiteline was not worth looking at because they don't spend as much as Mugen in development. You had said that:
And since I have proven that you did say that, I will not bother to follow up on that since you will just keep denying or insisting that you are right.

Not only do you misread things, but you add to them as well.

Firstly, my comment about your reading comprehension was in relation to you implying that I LEARNT ABOUT Whiteline not spending as much as Honda from the guys I ordered the suspension from. All I said was that they knew about this. There is a big difference between saying that somebody knows something and saying that you learnt if from them. In fact, my reference to other sources of information and reasoning made it quite clear that I didn't actually learn this from the guys who sell Mugen.

Secondly, please show me where I said that the guys were saying "whiteline was not worth looking at because they don't spend as much as Mugen in development"? That is a clear instance of you either miscomprehending my posts or deliberately distorting them to suit your argument.


All the posts that I read were from you. All the posts that I had quoted were consecutive except for one which did not speak mugen or whiteline. I feel that I have proven enough.
You've proven that you either don't want to or are unable to read the posts in their proper context and to properly comprehend them.


When people tune their cars, they tuned it to their requirements. Who are you or Mugen or Whiteline to say that my car needs a swaybar of certain stiffness?
Where did I say that YOUR car needs a swaybar of certain stiffness? And if you want to take that line of argument, who are you to say that Mugen aren't better than Whiteline when it comes to tuning a car for MY (or anybody else's) needs?

In fact, who are any of us to share our opinions with anybody else on this board?


Don't be Mr. Know-it-all and tell everyone that they should use coilovers instead of shocks+springs.
Where did I tell anybody that? There's another sign of your reading or interpretation problems.


You do realise that if the shape is different, it won't fit on the Euro.
Firstly, that's not necessarily correct, depending on what you mean by shape. Secondly, even if it was correct, how does that invalidate the point that Honda already did the development for Whiteline as far as shape is concerned and that Whiteline did not have to do any development in that respect?


And everyone knows that a swaybar's stiffness depends on the thickness, material and whether it is hollow.
So?


Why would I want to find statements to prove that they are identical now that there are photos showing that they are not?
There you go again with your misinterpretation. The statement to prove is your statement that they are both made and fitted in Japan. You tried to do that by saying that they look identical and that didn't work. But the fact that they are shaped differently does not remove the possibility that they are both made and fitted in Japan.

What is your position now? Are they both made and fitted in Japan or not?


Now I know your mentality. Even if you are proven wrong, you'll just spout bullshit from another hole or twist your story to your advantage. No point wasting my time on you. I think the others have also decided this since I am the only one replying to your posts now.
Being so presumptuous and poorly mannered will get you nowhere. How old are you?


Goodbye.
Goodbye to you too. And I'm sorry for not having been perceptive enough to realise the futility of trying to engage in an intelligent conversation with you earlier.

[Banana]

just get a set of lowered springs..
king springs maybe around $400 fitted
But I'd recommend something better for a euro, like H&R or eibach...they are about $500ish (not fitted) but worth the money

how low are you going though?

need new shocks too mate, king springs with stock shocks gonna kill ur stock shocks after around 10000, gonna cost u more money in the long run

[eurotrash]

You guys are boring the s**t out of the rest of us - its just going around and f**king around. GET A LIFE. POST SOMTHING INTERESTING AND CONSTRUCTIVE....

[yfin]

thread open

[aleksandrov]

I've had the Mugen (Showa) Sports Suspension kit on for over a week now and am very happy. For $1,750 installed, I think it's probably the best value mod I could have made.

The body roll and understeer have been reduced quite substantially, corners and high speed bends can be taken with much more confidence, high speed stability is greatly improved even in a relatively straight line, and the car feels more solid in a premium product kind of way, yet the comfort level has been mostly retained. In fact, on some roads the car feels even more comfortable than with the standard suspension, because of the increased stability, but the jaw can be rattled a bit on really crappy roads. This is the kind of suspension that a sports sedan should have as standard.

The only problem is that there is quite a bit of negative camber at the rear now (by eye), so it looks like I am going to have to get adjustable arms, which will cost me about $400 for US-made Ingalls, or around $1,100 for some Japanese brands. I think I'll go with the Ingalls.

I think I'll get a Cusco or Spoon front tower brace to try and sharpen up the turn-in a little and improve the steering feel. I'm not sure how much the brace can really help in this regard, but I'll take my chances. I don't think I'll be inclined to spend any more on the suspension after that, except maybe on a lower front brace.

[yfin]

good for you aleksandrov :thumbsup: What is your camber reading now? I am also tossing up about camber kits but I am not seeing any unusual wear at the rear tyres in almost 5000kms with my sports suspension kit (similar drop of 25mm - although it looks like more). It could be because I rarely carry a load in the rear of the car (without load it is about -2 to -2.5 if I recall correctly)

The tower brace does sharpen up turn in but to be honest with you it is not even close to the benefits of a thicker rear sway bar in all respects (turn in, balance, high speed turns, etc).

I know you don't like Whiteline so perhaps look at some other alternatives.

[aleksandrov]

I haven't had the camber measured, but my guess is that it's around -3. I'm not so worried about tyre wear, since it's probably cheaper to change tyres a little earlier than to pay for the camber kit, but I'm told by the wheel alligment guys at Heasman that you can reduce understeer by having more negative camber at the front than the rear. Reducing the rear negative camber will give me more fine-tuning room in that respect. Besides, I don't like the way the rear negative camber looks.

I was considering the Swift or Euro R front and rear swaybars, but I don't get enough unwanted body roll to justify reducing comfort any further by stiffening up the rear of chasis more. And from my experience with the old Integra, changing the rear swaybar (I used Whiteline), after I'd changed the spring and shocks, didn't really make the steering feel more direct (the front strut bar did, just a little), although I could carry more cornering speed with confidence due to the reduced body roll.

Btw, I regret not having measured the ground clearance before I changed the suspension. I know it's supposed to be a 25mm drop, but it definitely looks lower than I thought a 25mm drop would.

[aleksandrov]

I took the Euro to Heasman Steering today for an allignment after the 25mm lowering (with the Mugen Showa SS kit) and was pleasantly surprised to be told that the rear camber was only -1.5, which is apparently perfect for good handling. Not so perfect for tyre wear, but not too bad either, apparently. There's a saving of $400 on the Ingall rear camber kit (adjustable arms). :)

[yfin]

I took the Euro to Heasman Steering today for an allignment after the 25mm lowering (with the Mugen Showa SS kit) and was pleasantly surprised to be told that the rear camber was only -1.5, which is apparently perfect for good handling. Not so perfect for tyre wear, but not too bad either, apparently. There's a saving of $400 on the Ingall rear camber kit (adjustable arms). :)

Good work - I am in the same boat and holding out on a rear camber kit. The good news is after 3 months of driving with the lowered suspension I have no uneven wear on the rear tyres. The rears look the same as the fronts.

Keep in mind though that the camber measured in your car was without any rear load. If you regularly carry rear passengers or loads in the boot - it can significantly change the camber to the -3 level (or worse). So if you carry loads you may as well fork out for the kit.

[aleksandrov]

I do my best to avoid rear passengers. They make the engine struggle, stuff up the handling, leave marks on the leather, and they often whine too much about the way I drive. :( Unfortunately, I have to take three people and their luggage with me to Byron Bay this weekend - and I have to bring them back, too.

In any case, uneven tyre wear will give me an excuse to upgrade to better tyres sooner (not that the current Bridgestones are bad).

Btw, I think I am going to get the Swift rear swaybar on its own and see how it goes before I fork out money on the front. One obvious advantage of the Swift bars over Whiteline is that Swift use (strong) rubber bushes, which means less noise and no need for regular re-greasing. The downside is in the price, of course.

[yfin]

Btw, I think I am going to get the Swift rear swaybar on its own and see how it goes before I fork out money on the front. One obvious advantage of the Swift bars over Whiteline is that Swift use (strong) rubber bushes, which means less noise and no need for regular re-greasing. The downside is in the price, of course.

Cool - make sure you post up pics and a review.

It is funny what you say about the bushes as people on the TSX forums say poly bushes are much better than rubber. Anyway, the poly bushes on the Whilteline don't make any noise (at least so far - and I have had mine installed for over 7 months).

I regreased once - not because of noise - just because I happened to install a lock kit at the same time. I look forward to pics.

[aleksandrov]

The poly bushes are generally 'better' in the sense that they generally don't allow as much movement of the bar as rubber, so they improve handling precision. But I'm not after race-track precision. I want a comfortable car with sporting tendencies. Having said that, there is poly and then there is poly, there is rubber and then there is rubber. The rubber bushes on Hondas are apparently among the best, according to the guys at Whiteline and at Heasman. According to the guys at IS Motor Racing, Swift bars (which come with hard rubber bushes) are the best Japan has to offer for the Euro. I haven't seen any mention of Swift on the TSX forums (which don't seem to mention Japanese swaybars at all), so I'm not sure that they are a good guide as to how polyurethane compares to the rubber used by Swift.

I have experienced noise with my Whiteline bar on the Integra (which I've had for about 8 years), and the guy at Heasman today told me that it is a common problem with 'those plastic' (which is what he calls Whiteline's polyurethane) bushes. I've read several posts from other people (I think on this board) with similar complaints.

Btw, the guy at Heasman said that you should regrease poly bushes every six to twelve months, depending on conditions, so you might yet experience a need to regrease.

[jl88rl]

Great, u guys made up.

Sick of scrolling down past all those quote replys...

This is what i get when i wanna start a new thread but know the mod's "Search is your Friend" stuff.

So after all these 10 pages i am still not certain about a thing.

[Entity]

i read up till page 5...

all i wanna know is, how damaging is it to the shocks if i put just springs in and lower 1.5"?

i dont wanna be cornering and then my entire car collapse but im not really after a super-handler

i can't justify spending $2500 on a coilover kit when $400 springs will do the same visual effect, however i am worried about the safety factor for everyday driving.

i'm of the opinion that if you're gonna lower your car anything more than 1.5" you're going to need a camber kit to readjust right? so in reality its not really 400 for springs but 400 + another few hundred for the camber kit.

so here's the thing, 1800 for tein ss coilovers or 400 for custom KMAC springs? (they're both gonna need camber kit)

[yfin]

i read up till page 5...

all i wanna know is, how damaging is it to the shocks if i put just springs in and lower 1.5"?

i dont wanna be cornering and then my entire car collapse but im not really after a super-handler

i can't justify spending $2500 on a coilover kit when $400 springs will do the same visual effect, however i am worried about the safety factor for everyday driving.

i'm of the opinion that if you're gonna lower your car anything more than 1.5" you're going to need a camber kit to readjust right? so in reality its not really 400 for springs but 400 + another few hundred for the camber kit.

so here's the thing, 1800 for tein ss coilovers or 400 for custom KMAC springs? (they're both gonna need camber kit)

Too hard to say when your shocks will go. Some people in the USA have only got 6 months on the stock shocks with the prokit - which is less than a 1.5" drop.

You don't absolutely need a camber kit but the trade off is your tyres may not last as long. I haven't seen any unusual tyre wear with my drop with no camber kit after 5000kms+ (but the drop is only 1"). I am starting to think Mr Heeltoe in this thread (http://www.acura-tsx.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28209&page=1&pp=25&highlight=camber) is right. But he is talking about camber between -2 and -3 (so perhaps see what your specs are before deciding) - and you MUST get the TOE within spec.

I'll probably end up getting a camber kit anyway (there isn't really a down side save for cost. I am in the USA at the moment - and they have the Ingalls for $129US here - how we are quoted $400AUD for the same kit in Australia I have no idea).

As for coilovers - you don't need to go for the $1800 Tein. There are other (read cheaper) options like the Tanabe for around $1500 or even the D2 coilovers which are on ebay australia at the moment for only $1100. Personally I wouldn't touch the D2 as their marketing practices leave a lot to be desired but it is a better option than just springs.

[Slugoid]

all i wanna know is, how damaging is it to the shocks if i put just springs in and lower 1.5"?
Pretty damaging. You won't last a year before you feel your car bouncing all over the place.

Edit: Not really that damaging, but after a year you'll feel like the car is sagging. Maybe it's due to the wear of the shocks and the springs. Recently got the Euro raised with stock springs and the shocks are still in good condition (according to Pedders).



i dont wanna be cornering and then my entire car collapse but im not really after a super-handler
Your car won't collapse, it'll just feel really bouncy like when u go over speed humps.



i can't justify spending $2500 on a coilover kit when $400 springs will do the same visual effect, however i am worried about the safety factor for everyday driving.
Don't have to spend $2500 on coilovers JUST to lower them safely. Koni shocks and Eibach springs are great for the streets. Imo coilovers are just and overkill. $1500 can get you Koni's and Eibach. Coilovers and spings DO NOT have the same effect at all, especially if you match it with stock shocks.



i'm of the opinion that if you're gonna lower your car anything more than 1.5" you're going to need a camber kit to readjust right? so in reality its not really 400 for springs but 400 + another few hundred for the camber kit.

so here's the thing, 1800 for tein ss coilovers or 400 for custom KMAC springs? (they're both gonna need camber kit)
1.5" you don't NEED a camber it, but if you got the money go for it. Get the Tien's or get the KMAC springs with Koni shocks. That's the only way to go. Don't get springs alone. I'm sitting here regretting that I lowered my Euro with Eibach's without changing shocks.

[2jz]

Couldn't be bothered to read all those pages of long arguments, but I want to find out if the US TSX A spec spring and shocks fit our Euro without problems? Seems to have good review, and close to standard ride comfort?

[aaronng]

They fit. I think Yfin has them.

[yfin]

Couldn't be bothered to read all those pages of long arguments, but I want to find out if the US TSX A spec spring and shocks fit our Euro without problems? Seems to have good review, and close to standard ride comfort?
The TSX people are using JDM CL9 suspension without problems (eg Tein, Buddyclub, etc) so I can't see you having any issue at all using suspension designed for the TSX.

I am using the sports suspension kit for the european/UK CL9 so I don't think it is exactly the same as the TSX A Spec kit. Hard to say. As to you saying "close to standard ride comfort" - not quite. What I have is actually quite stiff (good for handling on nice roads) but is quite hard on crap roads. You can feel everything on crap roads.

Here is the best link I can find.. link (http://wwwhonda.de/content/car/15113_car_acs_details.php?model_idx=162&modelversion_idx=1&acc_group_id=3)

http://wwwhonda.de/globalimages/intact_images/acc_thumbs/taccord03254.JPG
SPORTFAHRWERKSATZ

08W60-SEA-600 4VORMONTIERTE FEDERBEINE - TIEFERLEGUNG CA.20MM - MIT TÜV-GUTACHTEN - IN VERBINDUNG MIT 16-/UND 17-ZOLL FELGEN EUR 626.40* Detailansicht (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:%20void%280%29)

[2jz]

Thanks for the link

[tony1234]

I am thinking of lowering my Euro. What do I have to look/ask for? Anyone know the estimated cost?
I've got a 06 euro lux. MT and i've put in Eibach springs and Bilstein shocks approx.2 mths. ago and the ride is excellent!!!Lowered approx.40 mm.also installed a 18mm rear sway bar,this was well worth the $200.00.NB.You MUST install a rear camber kit.(iinstalled an Eibach.Not cheap but well worth it!)cost all up was approx.$2300.00.again more than i wanted to spend but you get what you pay for.:thumbsup:

[yfin]

I've got a 06 euro lux. MT and i've put in Eibach springs and Bilstein shocks approx.2 mths. ago and the ride is excellent!!!Lowered approx.40 mm.also installed a 18mm rear sway bar,this was well worth the $200.00.NB.You MUST install a rear camber kit.(iinstalled an Eibach.Not cheap but well worth it!)cost all up was approx.$2300.00.again more than i wanted to spend but you get what you pay for.:thumbsup:
Hey, sounds nice but why didn't you go for adjustable coilovers?

Can you take a pic of your 06 OEM suspension and post it up here? I want to see if the springs are progressive or not.

[BusterSonic12]

i was planning on some coilovers... but then now got side tracked by the exhaust :P now saving up for exhaust then get coilovers.

[tony1234]

Hey, sounds nice but why didn't you go for adjustable coilovers?

Can you take a pic of your 06 OEM suspension and post it up here? I want to see if the springs are progressive or not.
After some research i thought coilovers mightn't suit the car(too stiff,noisy not progressive!).I took the"safe" option.mind you i've had no experience with coilovers.(i'd be int. in anyones thoughts/experience)Anyway,i'm happy with the end result. I'll post a pic soon.:thumbsup:

[euro77]

some coilover you can adjust the damper settings, so you can set it at its softest (or there about) if you want ride comfort, and make it harder for sprited driving/twisties and track.

[Slugoid]

some coilover you can adjust the damper settings, so you can set it at its softest (or there about) if you want ride comfort, and make it harder for sprited driving/twisties and track.

Pretty much any half decent coilover will have adjustable damper settings. However, a lot of Japanese coilovers (Tien, Cusco etc) are simply too harsh for aussie roads, even at the softest settings. They are great on track, but too hard on the road.

Everybody seems to cringe on spring and shocks combo, but I reckon if you find a good spring for the car with good shocks that's damper adjustable, it will do pretty much the same thing. However, it does require more research and a bit of tweaking but if it's done right, it will give you the same results as a set of coilovers.

[tony1234]

Pretty much any half decent coilover will have adjustable damper settings. However, a lot of Japanese coilovers (Tien, Cusco etc) are simply too harsh for aussie roads, even at the softest settings. They are great on track, but too hard on the road.

Everybody seems to cringe on spring and shocks combo, but I reckon if you find a good spring for the car with good shocks that's damper adjustable, it will do pretty much the same thing. However, it does require more research and a bit of tweaking but if it's done right, it will give you the same results as a set of coilovers.
That's what i thought.You need to be carefull with spring/shock combo.on a euro.Otherwise you can turn the car into a gocart.I've got eibach/bilstein combo and am very happy with it.

[aaronng]

Pretty much any half decent coilover will have adjustable damper settings. However, a lot of Japanese coilovers (Tien, Cusco etc) are simply too harsh for aussie roads, even at the softest settings. They are great on track, but too hard on the road.

Everybody seems to cringe on spring and shocks combo, but I reckon if you find a good spring for the car with good shocks that's damper adjustable, it will do pretty much the same thing. However, it does require more research and a bit of tweaking but if it's done right, it will give you the same results as a set of coilovers.
I drove my friend's Euro which was lowered with large rims and Tein Flex on the softest damper setting and it felt like stock, but with reduced bouncyness. Was good. I wouldn't mind putting in Tein Flex at that setting in my daily driver.

[stephen8512]

I drove my friend's Euro which was lowered with large rims and Tein Flex on the softest damper setting and it felt like stock, but with reduced bouncyness. Was good. I wouldn't mind putting in Tein Flex at that setting in my daily driver.

hhehehehe :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[stephen8512]

Pretty much any half decent coilover will have adjustable damper settings. However, a lot of Japanese coilovers (Tien, Cusco etc) are simply too harsh for aussie roads, even at the softest settings. They are great on track, but too hard on the road.

Everybody seems to cringe on spring and shocks combo, but I reckon if you find a good spring for the car with good shocks that's damper adjustable, it will do pretty much the same thing. However, it does require more research and a bit of tweaking but if it's done right, it will give you the same results as a set of coilovers.

i dont cringe. ive always been saying that eibach prokits with koni yellow adjustables are prob one of the best spring/shock combos u can get for the euro
i woulda def. gotten that if i didnt have my flex's

[curik]

Im sure you wouldnt, big eyed girl. First the eibach koni are only 2 way adjustable. 2nd konis are designed for a linear spring and not matched with eibach. Third it costs nearly as much as a tein SS which gives you everything. But the flex, thats even better!

[tony1234]

Im sure you wouldnt, big eyed girl. First the eibach koni are only 2 way adjustable. 2nd konis are designed for a linear spring and not matched with eibach. Third it costs nearly as much as a tein SS which gives you everything. But the flex, thats even better!
I find the Eibach/Bilstein combo great.

Good progressive rate and not too firm!:thumbsup:

[Ferrarista]

lol i was just reading through this and i forgot i 'participated'

Well guess what im in the process of getting a front strut bar :p

Also midly looking at Coilovers but wouldnt have a clue where to start

[Gerald28]

get a strutbar off bustersonic!
i'm sure he'll look after ya :p

I think the bang for your buck coilover will be the TEIN SS.
Many euro owners have expressed positive feedbacks about this set of coilovers. And considering the price ur paying, and what ur getting, i think its a worthwhile mod!

[Ferrarista]

get a strutbar off bustersonic!
i'm sure he'll look after ya :p

I think the bang for your buck coilover will be the TEIN SS.
Many euro owners have expressed positive feedbacks about this set of coilovers. And considering the price ur paying, and what ur getting, i think its a worthwhile mod!
What exactly is the price you are paying? And where is everyone getting them from?

I wanna keep the same ride height on the car (lowered 2' at the back and 2.5' at the front) but want a softer ride...right now its a bit rough..especially over the bumps.

[Gerald28]

hes selling the strutbar for $235, which i think is a good price. I paid $260 for mine.

The TEIN SS is damping adjustable and height adjustable. So there are many settings u can play around with. On the softer settings, its very close to stock. And lowering 2.5' front and 2' rear shouldnt be a problem at all

Trust me, when u have a set of adjustable coilovers, u always wanna make them stiffer, coz u can tackle the corners much faster. I always play around with my settings, and i'm nearly at the stiffest end!!

[nick_7g]

What exactly is the price you are paying? And where is everyone getting them from?

I wanna keep the same ride height on the car (lowered 2' at the back and 2.5' at the front) but want a softer ride...right now its a bit rough..especially over the bumps.

Hey, I know you ordered the ingalls camber kit from JDMyard, they also sell the Tein SS for around 1400.

These are jap imported items, and as such come with no australian warranty. If you desire this luxury, you can purchase them from an official australian distributor for about 2100. Check with the forum, but i am fairly sure the SS for the euro is not re-engineered for australian roads.

[Slugoid]

Im sure you wouldnt, big eyed girl. First the eibach koni are only 2 way adjustable. 2nd konis are designed for a linear spring and not matched with eibach. Third it costs nearly as much as a tein SS which gives you everything. But the flex, thats even better!
Any experience with that??

I have Koni's and King Springs (progressive) on my MX5 and I don't have any problems. In fact, I know a few other MX5's with Eibach and Koni and they say it's good as well. Contrary to what you have heard, the Koni Sports range (yellow) does suit progressive rate springs.

2 way adjustable?? I don't understand what you mean. My Koni's have ~720 degrees of adjustment (around 2 full turns) which controls the rebound forces. The only bad thing I can see is that compression forces cannot be controlled, but in terms of comfort, it's the rebound forces that is the biggest concern cos the springs control the compression forces initially, leaving the shocks to control the rebound.

With Tien SS, you get what you paid for but I mean Koni's aren't bad for the price. $900 for the shocks and $400 for the springs, as opposed to $1800+ for the coilovers.

PS: here's something from Koni for you to read:
http://www.koni.com/_cars/_general_info/technology/damping_forces.html

[sports06]

thought id use this old post rather than start a new one...

i went to get a price on new shocks and springs today, getting the euro lowered, and the guy said not to worry about shocks coz its a new car, he suggested lovells.... just wondering if anyone has had any experience with these springs? price was $600 fitted, i know you can get kings for about $400 fitted but thought lovells might be a better brand???

cheers

[tony1234]

thought id use this old post rather than start a new one...

i went to get a price on new shocks and springs today, getting the euro lowered, and the guy said not to worry about shocks coz its a new car, he suggested lovells.... just wondering if anyone has had any experience with these springs? price was $600 fitted, i know you can get kings for about $400 fitted but thought lovells might be a better brand???

cheers
Lovells are supposed to be better than Kings.Get Eibach if you can go the xtra $$$ and do the shocks if you can as well cause the OEM ones will only last 20-30,000ks from new if your lucky and the ride will be "bouncy"For shocks go Koni or Bilstein(i've got Eibach & Bilstein).This combo is GREAT.Just my opinion.

[tony1234]

BTW sports06 you'll DEF. need a rear camber kit!!

[sports06]

BTW sports06 you'll DEF. need a rear camber kit!!

cheers tony PM sent

[Lowenhart]

You don't NEED a rear camber kit, after lowering my Euro is -1.5 on one side and -1.7 on the other, which is acceptable.

[TypeG]

just get a set of TEIN SS
u MUST regret

Koni is just OKAY, I have exp with this brand and it is not doing well....

[euro77]

You don't NEED a rear camber kit, after lowering my Euro is -1.5 on one side and -1.7 on the other, which is acceptable.

depending on how low you go! :D

[aaronng]

You don't NEED a rear camber kit, after lowering my Euro is -1.5 on one side and -1.7 on the other, which is acceptable.
Your rear camber is on the verge of being out of spec. :)

[BusterSonic12]

how much was the teinSS? how much does it low by?
is it like really stiff? or quite soft close to stocky?
interested:p



just get a set of TEIN SS
u MUST regret

Koni is just OKAY, I have exp with this brand and it is not doing well....

[tony1234]

You're right.you dont need a rear camber kit.But keep a close eye on the inner side of your rear tyres.i'll bet they wear faster than the rest of the tyre!!!

[curik]

get a front camber kit and put it to -6, that should give you a similar handling to a V8 supercar....