DC2 VTiR stock suspension upgrade

[Shraka]

Hey guys.

I was out tonight having a bit of a play in my stock 1994 DC2 Integra VTi-R. One thing I noticed was a scary amount of body roll around some tight corners, and some loss of traction when pushing out of longer corners.

So now I'm wondering if I should void my stupid warranty on the suspension and upgrade to something that will hold the road better, and how much this is gonna cost me / if it's worth it?

I understand whiteline are a good company (as many toymods guys have told me), and have looked at their stuff. They seem to have 3 options. The Handling pack, the sports pack, and the full kit. Sports pack seems to just be a set of springs and shocks. I imagine these will be lower than standard and possibly even lower than the Type R dampers and springs? Handling pack replaces a lot more parts, but I'm wondering if, without new shocks, am I gonna see much of a difference. Obviously the works is desireable, but outside what I could afford to pay. Note, I'm still paying this car off, and will be for a few years.

So I'm wondering, are shocks and springs all that's needed? Or should I be considering sway bars, and lower controll arm braces? Will lowering the car put any un-due pressure on other suspension components that aren't upgraded? Or am I better off just getting type R suspension components?

The VTi-R already has a strut brace in place, so unless it's totaly crap, I don't think I have to worry about that.

Last question (and sorry for the essay), I've heard people mention anti-lift kits, but never had anyone explain to me exactly what they are. I've been told they reduce body roll.

Note that I want to keep my car as a day driver. Also I'm open to suggestions on brand, but I don't want something that's gonna die on me. If I do end up lowering, I'll be voiding my suspension warranty so I want something I can trust.

EDIT:
P.S. I also think my DC2 looks to high. :) So cosmeticaly speaking, lowering sounds good.

[ONV73C]

springs + shocks, whiteline & koni good combo

& upgrading the from the stock honda rear sway bar is one of the best suspension mods IMO. Whiteline make a 22mm which is :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[bennjamin]

keep front upper chassis brace.
Get larger rear swaybar + tiebar setup from whiteline - THEN either lower springs or perhaps a koni yellow/spring combo to give it a nicer stance.
Maybe spend alittle mroe and install a front castor kit ( from whiteline too).

After everything is installed get a full wheel alignment and you are set. Dont forget good rubber too !

[kk_]

keep front upper chassis brace.
Get larger rear swaybar + tiebar setup from whiteline - THEN either lower springs or perhaps a koni yellow/spring combo to give it a nicer stance.
Maybe spend alittle mroe and install a front castor kit ( from whiteline too).

After everything is installed get a full wheel alignment and you are set. Dont forget good rubber too !
is getting the larger rear swaybar + tie bar combo better than having a lower stiffer stance? as in...would i notice more of a handling difference installing the rear swaybar+tie bar as opposed to getting coilovers or aftermarket shocks?

i plan on doing all of these eventually, just wondering if id feel a noticeable improvement with this upgrade on an otherwise stock suspension dc2. i WAS saving for coilovers...but since i can afford the rear swaybar+tiebar combo now, i might as well get it if it will give me a decent handling upgrade! :D

[bennjamin]

the best / most influencial mod = larger rear swaybar :)

[Shraka]

Rear swaybar? That's strange. Especialy on a FWD. But then perhaps that's why it's not as strong stock, 'cuz it's a FWD and they don't think it would matter as much?

Anyway, I'll price this all out. Cheers guys. I wouldn't wanna just get springs. I hear bad things about that and what it does to the dampers.

As KK said, would I be better off getting the rear swaybar than getting coilovers or springs and dampers?

Will a castor kid put more strain on my power steering?

I've got Potenzas on the back at the moment, and some crap up front (I'll get them rotated next service).

What would you recomend as good rubber for stock DC2 VTiR rims?

[Shraka]

Oh, and what is a tiebar anyway? How does it work?

[kk_]

you'd prolly want to do the rear sway bar AND the coilover/shocks upgrade eventually, as its all benficial in the end...but yeh im probably going to do the rear swaybar + tie bar since its cheaper atm! even though it means my car will be sitting in the sky for awhile longer :(

as for tyres, it really depends how much you wanna spend. i got shitty hankooks on the stockies from the previous owner so i will probably upgrade to either bridgestone g3s or possibly falken azenis rt215s if im feeling somewhat cashed up :rolleyes:

but at about $110 - $130 a tyre for g3s in 195/50/r15s im leaning more towards the bridgestones...

[wynode]

Aight lets not talk about tyres here as there are a few other threads RE that already. Lets try and keep this thread about springs/shocks/swaybars to reduce confusion.

As already stated, your best bang for buck would be to upgrade your rear swaybar as it will help you reduce bodyroll and understeer. Make sure you also get the heavy duty mounts to protect your subframe (see the whiteline site for more info).

Then you can do your springs/shocks.

Casor kit will help improve turn in at a sacrifice of slightly stiffer steering (which will in theory put more straing on your power steering system), but it should be fine.

[lerroy]

Great post thanks

Im gonna get a 22mm Rear Sway bar from Whiteline ( TRAV)
can i install this myself ??? or needs to be professionally installed

[Q_ball]

thanks heaps for the input fellas, this is helpin me out heaps too :)

[wynode]

Great post thanks

Im gonna get a 22mm Rear Sway bar from Whiteline ( TRAV)
can i install this myself ??? or needs to be professionally installed
If you have some basic install skills......it isn't too hard (although the whiteline instructions I've heard suck LOL)

[Q_ball]

^ ill call u win :)

[lerroy]

yeah ok should be able to then if not i know where to ask advice

thanks guys ill hit Egsi up for one :P

[wynode]

Here ya go!

(Fitting instructions)

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6043

PS: Have your CC ready Q :p

[Shraka]

Cool thanks.

Some questions that haven't been answered though:
1. What's an anti-lift kit? Is this the same as a castor kit?
2. What's the difference between a swaybar and a tie-bar?

And some new questions:
3. Does a rear strut brace make much of a difference? The sales person said it had one, but I've had a look, and I can't see it (Should stick right across my back seats by my figuring).
4. Would poly pushes make any sort of impact on handling? I've heard them used a lot for drifting for S13s and AE86s, and are probably a bit on the extreeme side for road use. Thoughts?
5. Are coilovers that much better than springs and shocks? Keeping in mind it's a road car that has to go up driveways and deal with potholes and crappy road surfaces.
6. Adjustable height suspension. I know hydraulic suspension is illegal - in victoria atleast. What about airbag suspension? I hear it's nowhere near as good as a good set of fixed height (or manual adjustable anyway) suspension. So how does it compare?
I'd be interested in this, as then I could dump my car on it's arse, and not have to worry about getting over speed humps and up driveways once I put a new lip on the front and some sideskirts on her. (steep driveway? Flick a switch, wait 2 mins, not a problem).

[wynode]

Soo many questions *sigh*

Have you searched at all?



1. What's an anti-lift kit? Is this the same as a castor kit?


Anti-lift kits aren't that much of a requirement on our Hondas. It is more essential for 4WD cars like the WRX



2. What's the difference between a swaybar and a tie-bar?

The tie-bar is there more to re-inforce the sub-fram as a result of the excessive forces applied to it by the swybar.

If you click here (http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles/AS_0308_susp_2.htm), the bottom left pic shows the tiebar under the swaybar.



3. Does a rear strut brace make much of a difference? The sales person said it had one, but I've had a look, and I can't see it (Should stick right across my back seats by my figuring).

It connects the top of the rear shock mounts in order to stiffen the chasis. Any type of (proper) chasis bracing is a good thing. If you can't see it...its not there.


4. Would poly pushes make any sort of impact on handling? I've heard them used a lot for drifting for S13s and AE86s, and are probably a bit on the extreeme side for road use. Thoughts?

Poly bushes tend to last longer than rubber ones and will give you a stiffer feel at the sacrifice of a slightly harsher ride.


5. Are coilovers that much better than springs and shocks? Keeping in mind it's a road car that has to go up driveways and deal with potholes and crappy road surfaces.
If you are on a budget.....stick with springs / shocks. If you plan to track your car or are serious about its handling.....you'd have to consider coilovers. You get what you pay for and will have to research the various brands.


6. Adjustable height suspension. I know hydraulic suspension is illegal - in victoria atleast. What about airbag suspension? I hear it's nowhere near as good as a good set of fixed height (or manual adjustable anyway) suspension. So how does it compare?
I'd be interested in this, as then I could dump my car on it's arse, and not have to worry about getting over speed humps and up driveways once I put a new lip on the front and some sideskirts on her. (steep driveway? Flick a switch, wait 2 mins, not a problem)

DO you want a show pony or something that handles well.......or are you just asking questions for the sake of it ? :confused:

[tinkerbell]

Cool thanks.

Some questions that haven't been answered though:
1. What's an anti-lift kit? Is this the same as a castor kit?

no

2. What's the difference between a swaybar and a tie-bar?

heaps

And some new questions:
3. Does a rear strut brace make much of a difference? The sales person said it had one, but I've had a look, and I can't see it (Should stick right across my back seats by my figuring).

no

4. Would poly pushes make any sort of impact on handling?

only if you current bushes are stuffed


5. Are coilovers that much better than springs and shocks?

yes they are

6. Adjustable height suspension.
I'd be interested in this,

i thought you wanted to IMPROVE the handling

stop wasting our time and bandwith :thumbdwn:

[Shraka]

I did search actualy, and didn't find anything helpfull. Also, I noticed that this went up in the list of usefull posts to review stuff on suspension upgrades, I figured it wouldn't hurt to have as much info in here as possible.

You still haven't answered my question about what anti-lift kits are.

I don't want adjustable suspension as some showey crap, but I've seen a lot of my friends scrape the hell outta their exhaust and the rest of their under carriage as well as damaged their front bar against steep driveways. I don't want to have to worry about this. I also know that lowering a car (to a point) is a good thing, as it lowers the center of gravity. So if I could get adjustable suspension that wasn't totaly crap, it'd make me a happy chappy.
Seemingly from your posts though, airbags are crap. So thanks for answering my question, in a round about sorta way.


stop wasting our time and bandwith :thumbdwn:
Man I don't cop this kinda attitude from toymods. I might just stick to that forum.
Speaking of wasting bandwidth, your post didn't help at all tinkerbell.

[lerroy]

To be Honest you are going to spend alot of money on adjustable suspension if its quick adjusts, unless its a more manual adjustable suspension
If you thinking airbags stuff then its not gonna handle good at all...

You can get adjustable shocks you adjust the thread but that means getting out of the car and screwing all the shocks up and down etc...

you may as well if you want a low car get a nice tidy exhaust and just be very careful my car is on its belly but i still just play it safe obviously there are places i cant go but i find that im used to it now....something you have to live with having a low car

good luck

I hope this post was more useful to you...

[bennjamin]

guys relax - just grab a rear swaybar + reinforcement then take it from there :)

[Shraka]

Cheers lerroy, that's what I thought re: airbag suspension. (And yes this is more like the kinda post I was expecting from my questions, cheers :thumbsup: ).

Seems the rear swaybar is the way to go. I might just grab one of these and see if I even need lower suspension after that.

Any suggestions on swaybar brands, appart from whiteline obviously?

[tinkerbell]

You still haven't answered my question about what anti-lift kits are.


ohhhh, so sorry your majesty!

have a SEARCH n00b!

http://au.search.anzwers.yahoo.com/search/anzwers?p=anti-lift+kit&y=au&search.x=37&search.y=6

[lerroy]

Cheers lerroy, that's what I thought re: airbag suspension. (And yes this is more like the kinda post I was expecting from my questions, cheers :thumbsup: ).

Seems the rear swaybar is the way to go. I might just grab one of these and see if I even need lower suspension after that.

Any suggestions on swaybar brands, appart from whiteline obviously?

No probs.

rear Swaybar as you have read from other post will help alot
i myself have just purchased one from Egsi Trader on ozhonda

see thread here http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19394

And yes this is a whiteline Swaybar, it was $235 Shipped to my door so not bad

i dont really know that many brands im guessing brands like do luck and cusco etc.. make them but expect to pay like 3 times what whiteline are

good luck anyway

links to other places

Whiteline at modyourcar (http://www.modyourcar.com.au/?cPath=17_94&brand=44&uni=1&car_make=7&action=buy_now&products_id=2914)

[Shraka]

ohhhh, so sorry your majesty!

have a SEARCH n00b!

http://au.search.anzwers.yahoo.com/search/anzwers?p=anti-lift+kit&y=au&search.x=37&search.y=6
Sorry to have upset your delicate mental balance. :rolleyes: I'm gonna go stand over here now. Oh and thanks for providing usefull info this time. I've never actualy seen this anzwers site before.

...

Thanks again lerroy.

[tinkerbell]

apology accepted :)

[kk_]

Cheers lerroy, that's what I thought re: airbag suspension. (And yes this is more like the kinda post I was expecting from my questions, cheers :thumbsup: ).

Seems the rear swaybar is the way to go. I might just grab one of these and see if I even need lower suspension after that.

Any suggestions on swaybar brands, appart from whiteline obviously?
well if your stock suspension is anything like mine, your probably getting quite alot of roll into hard corners. so i reckon it would be wise to still look into getting some stiffer shocks or coilovers to deal with the body roll and the shocking ride height :(

AFAIK swaybars are more to assist with chassis flex and bracing? whereas coilovers and shocks would be more helpful in reducing the roll into corners so while getting a thicker rear swaybar is an improvement it probably wont help as much as shocks would if you're noticing more body roll as a problem.

anywayz with that said just get both..rear sway bar + tie bar..then some coilovers!

[man.exe]

AFAIK swaybars are more to assist with chassis flex and bracing?
Swaybars will eliminate the car body roll during turns, not assisting in chassis flex. I installed a whiteline rear 22mm and it got rid of around 70% of the tilting.

Driving a DC2 with the rear sway bar should be a new challenge and it should put more stress on your tyres.

[wynode]

AFAIK swaybars are more to assist with chassis flex and bracing?

Is that a quesion or a statement.........or you just don't know ?

[kk_]

more of a statement that i am not completely sure of :p

and i guess i was wrong

[tinkerbell]

One thing I noticed was a scary amount of body roll around some tight corners, and some loss of traction when pushing out of longer corners.


this is also symptomatic of blown/old shocks,

how many KM your car done?

[Shraka]

78,000 now. I'll ask the mechanics if the shocks are worn, and if they are, I wont both getting new stock ones that's for sure.

Now I dunno if this has been answered directly: Does lowering DC2 VTiRs by say, 2" cause any stress on other suspension components? Does it ruin things like camber angles? I know most people don't upgrade controll arms or anything like that, but that doesn't mean it's okay. (I know a few commodore owners who have cut their springs, but I think EVERYONE knows how bad THAT is)

[wynode]

http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25970


Lowered cars and negative camber
One of the biggest problems with a lowered Honda is the increased negative camber that is created. Negative camber might be a good thing in terms of handling however it will also mean that the insides of your tyres will wear out quicker so it is best to get a camber kit for the front / rear. Note however that once your tyres start wearing excessively on the inside, it is quit hard to get them wearing evenly so address this problem ASAP!

For EG, EK and DC2 you can purchase adjustable upper control arms to select the desired amount of camber. The same can be doen for DC5s via adjustable upper pillowball mounts. Do a search on the forums for more information.

How much negative camber you have depends on how much you lower it. The best way to measure how much the car i lowered is to measure from the centre of the wheel hub to the guard (measure straight up).

[shebangs]

Can anyone comment on upgrading the swaybars + tie bar on a DC2 VTiR with slightly worm stock springs/shocks?

Or should I save, and do my entire suspension in one hit? I'm planning on getting coilovers (undecided) - but then redoing the entire suspension. Front/Rear Struts, Front/rear Sway bars, Tie Bars. Will I need LCA if I'm going Coilovers? Then finally the coilovers and maybe misc stuff like C-Pillars etc.

I dont mind doing it in one go, but obviously doing it in two steps would be more fun for me as I'l be able to have the $500 much sooner than the $3000 for the entire setup.

Thanks

[tinkerbell]

you would save $$ on labour if you were paying to get it done...

you need ITR lca's to get proper Jap type coil-overs...

bigger sway bar will over-whelm the standard springs etc... so try to do it in one hit...

[shebangs]

So If I want to put coilovers on the VTiR, I need to get ITR LCA's? Do I need OEM LCA's or do Cusco/etc make them?

I'm basically looking at redo my entire suspension setup, and I know bigger sway bars front and rear (mainly rear) the go - and definately coilovers. But anything in the middle I'm unsure about. Items such as Control Arms, Tie's, Camber Kits and LCA's.

Matt

[tinkerbell]

need: ITR lca's

best is OEM...

i am still runing my stock front sway bar with 22mm whiteline rear one with Cusco Zero2 coilovers with 8k front and 6k rear springs.

i lap wakefield at 1:15 all day, and have done 1:13's but not often...

i was running 12k front and 8k rrear springs, but it was too stiff for me on the street... (great on track!)

i would LIKE a bigger front sway bar, but it is not a prioity... i do not have any camber kits (and my car is NOT slammed!),

and i have also swapped my upper control arms L to R to increase castor: http://forums.clubrsx.com/showthread.php?t=374822

you should IMO do in this order:

1. coil-overs + upper control arms
2. rear sway bar
3. strut brace front
4. strut brace rear
5. front sway bar

hope this helps :)

[ricki_kalsi]

Don't bother with springs... it's a waste of money! Get Buddy club coilovers! They are awsome. I have Buddy club racing spec dampers... F**KIN KING SHIT! The N+ dampers with a combination of white line sway bars will do a hell of alot!

[DCB18]

this is exactly what i needed too. thanks guys.
i got very scary quotes on some coilovers the other day. :eek:

cheers

[Spunkymonkey]

woah....old thread

[Shraka]

Ha ha, revival.

[DUST]

Im glad someone revived this, cause i am looking at APEXI N1 ExV coilovers.

Anyone used them on a VTIR? or have any pros and cons?