View Full Version : CL9 dyno - Stock vs RMD CAI prototype
ginganggooly
04-03-2007, 10:57 AM
The red line is my bone stock CL9, the Blue line is after a few hours of playing around with various pipe diameter and length configurations. Not what we were hoping for, but it's a start.
Short rams suffered universal losses in power, and that was not from heatsoak (dyno'd with bonnet open and cold intake pipes).
This is untuned, and as you can see the intake made the car run rich, while also making more power. We're expecting big gains with the Autronic setup.
RMD should have the fabrication process for Euro intake setup quite soon.
http://www.imagehosting.com/out.php/i292969_StockvsIntake.jpg
Next steps are Header, TB, Exhaust and Autronic P&P setup.
Will the Autronic stand alone let you keep factory controls working unchanged such as dash, DBW, VSA, air-con, etc?
ginganggooly
04-03-2007, 11:13 AM
I'm unsure of VSA -it will need to be tested- however, everything else will be fine.
Are you happy to tell us roughly how much that ECU setup will cost approx?
ginganggooly
04-03-2007, 11:22 AM
We're unsure as yet. There is alot of R&D to be done in terms of harnesses, wiring and sensors. Until we start working on the product, I can't give an accurate response.
ETA in around 3 months to get it all flying, however, the intent is to market it as a Plug and Play mod.
are you going to be fabricating your own headers and exhaust? Or will you be sourcing existing models on the market.
ginganggooly
04-03-2007, 11:32 AM
Exhaust is likely to be off the shelf, as there are already plenty of players there.
Everything else will be designed in house, while fabrication will really come down to the level of demand... DynoDave has never been one for copying other's work :)
Chris_F
04-03-2007, 11:53 AM
A plug and play Autronic ecu sounds good to me.
you mention dynodave, i thought he was working with hondata?
looking forward to more details...
aaronng
04-03-2007, 11:54 AM
So I'm assuming you'll be able to control ignition timing independently too?
ginganggooly
04-03-2007, 05:59 PM
you mention dynodave, i thought he was working with hondata?
Dave tunes pretty much every aftermarket ECU i know of...
ginganggooly
04-03-2007, 06:00 PM
So I'm assuming you'll be able to control ignition timing independently too?
I'd hope an Autronic could manage that :)
Chris_F
04-03-2007, 06:28 PM
looks like we'll have a few options in the future ecu wise then :P
badthing
04-03-2007, 07:47 PM
looks like we'll have a few options in the future ecu wise then :P
Good news for us.
Good news for us.
Competition is always great - keeps everyone honest! That said, Hondata released the reflash in March 2005 (in the US) so they have quite a bit of experience tuning and developing the K24 now. In my opinion they are the safest and most reliable option rather than going for something that is still not proven.
aaronng
04-03-2007, 08:00 PM
Competition is always great - keeps everyone honest! That said, Hondata released the reflash in March 2005 (in the US) so they have quite a bit of experience tuning and developing the K24 now. In my opinion they are the safest and most reliable option rather than going for something that is still not proven.
Tuning and ECU are different things. An aftermarket ECU is only as good as its tuner. If Hondata released a K-pro that supported the K24A, and a bad tuner was to tune it, it would be unreliable and not safe.
Tuning and ECU are different things. An aftermarket ECU is only as good as its tuner. If Hondata released a K-pro that supported the K24A, and a bad tuner was to tune it, it would be unreliable and not safe.
Yes for sure, what I am saying is the Hondata reflash is proven. Whilst the Australian version is going to be different they have picked up on the R&D done with the US model which has sold since March 05.
aaronng
04-03-2007, 08:15 PM
Yes for sure, what I am saying is the Hondata reflash is proven. Whilst the Australian version is going to be different they have picked up on the R&D done with the US model which has sold since March 05.
You can't compare it like that. A mildly tuned aftermarket ECU is going to be more reliable in the long run than a stage 4 J-tune setup.
You can't compare it like that. A mildly tuned aftermarket ECU is going to be more reliable in the long run than a stage 4 J-tune setup.
why is that?
aaronng
04-03-2007, 08:19 PM
why is that?
The engine has limits. And you are going closer to that limit with more power made. Granted, it's not a large decrease in engine life nor a catastrophic failure, but it will be shorter than a mildly tuned car.
The engine has limits. And you are going closer to that limit with more power made. Granted, it's not a large decrease in engine life nor a catastrophic failure, but it will be shorter than a mildly tuned car.
Dunno. I think you have more chance of reliability issues getting the car tuned by someone who doesn't have the experience and R&D behind them.
aaronng
04-03-2007, 08:42 PM
Dunno. I think you have more chance of reliability issues getting the car tuned by someone who doesn't have the experience and R&D behind them.
If you have a competent tuner doing a mild tune, it will still be more reliable than the stage 4. Of course, get a noob tuner to do a mild tune and he might even stuff the car up while it is still on the dyno! :)
TypeG
04-03-2007, 08:55 PM
yeah.... tuner is the key most of the time
this apply on all ecus
EuroAccord13
04-03-2007, 09:47 PM
No matter how competent the tuner is... A mild tune will always still be safer than an aggressive tune..
It's the same as driving after 2 full strength beers vs. driving after 6 full strength beers and it doesn't matter if they are good drinkers, the risks are still there hence the latter being more at risk of losing control of the car..
HIJACK
looks like we'll have a few options in the future ecu
wise then :P
My car will be undergoing R&D in a few weeks time when all the part arrive... Another option for CL9 owners!
Chris_F
04-03-2007, 10:50 PM
.
My car will be undergoing R&D in a few weeks time when all the part arrive... Another option for CL9 owners!
:eek: awesome!
so far we've gone from nothing to:
EFI Euro1 standalone
Hondata reflash
Autronic standalone
Tecknick tuning?
can you give us anymore details about what ecu??
cvetko111
05-03-2007, 02:09 AM
We're unsure as yet. There is alot of R&D to be done in terms of harnesses, wiring and sensors. Until we start working on the product, I can't give an accurate response.
ETA in around 3 months to get it all flying, however, the intent is to market it as a Plug and Play mod.
Ok, it is a great setup and the great product ( autronic ). My tuner (also great friend) is a dealer for autronic in my region in EU :D .
He has done many cars whith this ECU. It has great potential for control and tune anything on the tuned engine. I have in my plans to build the engine whith individual trottle body, piston kit, agresive skunk2 cams and nitro ( I have it allready for the instalation, yust waiting in my room ). Only I need the ECU too control that. I ask my friend ( tuner ) many times about this combination and he say that this is the best option for tune the k24 engine. But we have some problems. First is Plug and Play mod, how to done that ( I can do it on the old school way, but it is a pain in the ass )? Second, autronic is not working with drive by wire trottle body ( And individual trottle bodys dont work with drive by wire trottle body) ? Third, VSA will not work, and thats for sure ( maybe and some other function ) ? It is a cool project, I dont have time to play with my car in garage. Because I need for work. :(
If I start this project my car will be in garage at least 7 days.
How do you think solve this problems? If you have some ideas maybe and I will start to work on my car. :wave: 300 hp here we go!!! :cool:
ginganggooly
05-03-2007, 09:23 AM
Ok, it is a great setup and the great product ( autronic ). My tuner (also great friend) is a dealer for autronic in my region in EU :D .
He has done many cars whith this ECU. It has great potential for control and tune anything on the tuned engine. I have in my plans to build the engine whith individual trottle body, piston kit, agresive skunk2 cams and nitro ( I have it allready for the instalation, yust waiting in my room ). Only I need the ECU too control that. I ask my friend ( tuner ) many times about this combination and he say that this is the best option for tune the k24 engine. But we have some problems. First is Plug and Play mod, how to done that ( I can do it on the old school way, but it is a pain in the ass )? Second, autronic is not working with drive by wire trottle body ( And individual trottle bodys dont work with drive by wire trottle body) ? Third, VSA will not work, and thats for sure ( maybe and some other function ) ? It is a cool project, I dont have time to play with my car in garage. Because I need for work. :(
If I start this project my car will be in garage at least 7 days.
How do you think solve this problems? If you have some ideas maybe and I will start to work on my car. :wave: 300 hp here we go!!! :cool:
I'll go for the politicians response- all your questions will be answered in the fullness of time :D
Slightly more seriously, I don't know if this is actually going to work, and I certainly can't guarantee it, but the theory behind everything is fine. Putting that theory into practice will be the hard bit.
There have been plenty of successful Autronic with other DBW applications locally, i'm not sure about overseas.
All I can say, it watch this space. Hopefully there will be some real results fairly soon!
ginganggooly
05-03-2007, 09:34 AM
Competition is always great - keeps everyone honest! That said, Hondata released the reflash in March 2005 (in the US) so they have quite a bit of experience tuning and developing the K24 now. In my opinion they are the safest and most reliable option rather than going for something that is still not proven.
Probably best to state that this is in no way, shape or form, an indictment of Hondata products (i've been using an s200 and more recently an S300 in my DC2 for years now), if Hondata had a solution that didn't involve a reflash, there is no way in hell I'd bother looking into an Autronic.
That said, I haven't ever, and never will be, a fan of one size fits all tuning. How can a tune that is designed for a bog stock K24 apply to a K24 with all the schmick bolt-ons, or one with cams and a cam gear, or one with a Supercharger, or one with a turbo? On top of this you've got the unknown variables of the engines age, local fuel, temperature, ability to expand down the track... suddenly a reflash looks a little less viable to me.
There is a near endless list of differing combinations of modifications which would require different tunes. A simple reflash based on a multitude of big assumptions does not seem the right way to go.
BusterSonic12
05-03-2007, 10:20 AM
what's RMD cold air intake? what does the RMD stand for?
ginganggooly
05-03-2007, 10:41 AM
Redline Motorsport Developments
It's a local company. Best person to talk to is DynoDave: dave@redlinemotorsport.com.au
He's the person that designed the system, I'm not sure if they've settled on a fabricator for them yet.
pornstar
05-03-2007, 11:42 AM
Slim, the autronic pnp will work. Tell dave to hit me up if theres something his unsure of with the loom, we have built one for our efi ecu looms already, theres only 2-3 wires to really be watchful for.
The autronic will control DBW for sure, the VSA can be replaced by traction control.
BiLL|z0r
05-03-2007, 01:15 PM
That said, I haven't ever, and never will be, a fan of one size fits all tuning. How can a tune that is designed for a bog stock K24 apply to a K24 with all the schmick bolt-ons, or one with cams and a cam gear, or one with a Supercharger, or one with a turbo? On top of this you've got the unknown variables of the engines age, local fuel, temperature, ability to expand down the track... suddenly a reflash looks a little less viable to me.
There is a near endless list of differing combinations of modifications which would require different tunes. A simple reflash based on a multitude of big assumptions does not seem the right way to go.
This is why the K24 reflash is only sold with the Hondata bolt ons (except Stage 1 which is generic and would be play on the side of caution I'm sure).
The autronic will control DBW for sure, the VSA can be replaced by traction control.
VSA does a lot more than just traction control though. I know I wouldn't buy it unless it was true VSA as Honda designed it.
ginganggooly
05-03-2007, 01:24 PM
This is why the K24 reflash is only sold with the Hondata bolt ons (except Stage 1 which is generic and would be play on the side of caution I'm sure).
VSA does a lot more than just traction control though. I know I wouldn't buy it unless it was true VSA as Honda designed it.
The reflash is totally fine if you're willing to make that large a compromise on performance. If you want to step things up then I feel it's not the right solution.
I'm hoping that with the Autronic solution being investigated, VSA can be retained. It one of those things that we'll need to wait to see...
No one is making promises here, but I'm excited as hell in the possibilities of using something as flexible as the SM4. :thumbsup:
jimmeh
05-03-2007, 03:28 PM
Hey guys I think a few of you are wrong in regards to what James is working on for JTune and the Euros. I was only talking to him yesterday regarding a clients car and he has a fully tune able option ready for the Euro, compatible with VSA drive by wire, immobilizer etc using the standard ECU.
aaronng
05-03-2007, 04:06 PM
Hey guys I think a few of you are wrong in regards to what James is working on for JTune and the Euros. I was only talking to him yesterday regarding a clients car and he has a fully tune able option ready for the Euro, compatible with VSA drive by wire, immobilizer etc using the standard ECU.
Over at hondatech, he said that the standalone was a long ways away.
pornstar
05-03-2007, 04:15 PM
VSA does a lot more than just traction control though. I know I wouldn't buy it unless it was true VSA as Honda designed it.
You CAN retain VSA, its simply the way that Dave decides to wire the plug and play loom. But if you ever tried to drive the euro on track, you will know why you'd want the VSA disabled :)
aaronng
05-03-2007, 04:31 PM
You CAN retain VSA, its simply the way that Dave decides to wire the plug and play loom. But if you ever tried to drive the euro on track, you will know why you'd want the VSA disabled :)
Yeah, because of an experience with VSA not even at the limit, I now drive with VSA off 100% of the time. Even in the rain.
ginganggooly
05-03-2007, 04:56 PM
Yeah, because of an experience with VSA not even at the limit, I now drive with VSA off 100% of the time. Even in the rain.
What happened?
I know it felt a little strange when i reefed the handbrake the other day... when i went to power down to keep it from spinning out, it started beeping at me and wouldn't let me get on the throttle.
VSA off and aside from the beeping, it was fine :)
ginganggooly
05-03-2007, 05:01 PM
Hey guys I think a few of you are wrong in regards to what James is working on for JTune and the Euros. I was only talking to him yesterday regarding a clients car and he has a fully tune able option ready for the Euro, compatible with VSA drive by wire, immobilizer etc using the standard ECU.
Well this would be a winning product; it'd save a fairly hefty expense by myself and a few others to get the teething problems out of the way.
aaronng
05-03-2007, 05:26 PM
What happened?
I know it felt a little strange when i reefed the handbrake the other day... when i went to power down to keep it from spinning out, it started beeping at me and wouldn't let me get on the throttle.
VSA off and aside from the beeping, it was fine :)
Was just taking a smooth curve with a slight downward slope on the road at 70km/h in a 80km/h zone. I think the outer front tyre must have lost a little grip and suddenly the VSA light flashed and my car was snap oversteering into the corner. Had to counter, otherwise the car would have ended up into the hill slope. My foot never touched the brakes and the other Euro behind me also had the same VSA incident.
badthing
05-03-2007, 08:50 PM
Yeah, because of an experience with VSA not even at the limit, I now drive with VSA off 100% of the time. Even in the rain.
Same here. My habit to turn VSA off as soon as I start the car.
pornstar
05-03-2007, 09:30 PM
Was just taking a smooth curve with a slight downward slope on the road at 70km/h in a 80km/h zone. I think the outer front tyre must have lost a little grip and suddenly the VSA light flashed and my car was snap oversteering into the corner. Had to counter, otherwise the car would have ended up into the hill slope. My foot never touched the brakes and the other Euro behind me also had the same VSA incident.
I've never been a fan of factory controlled traction control systems for this reason. I believe they are more a marketing tool than an actual driving aid.
To give you an idea, the lambos and ferraris that we work closely with in GT racing have state of the art traction control systems based on pendulum axis movements, suspension compression, tyre slip relative to the other tyres etc, and the amount of time we put into trying to perfect it, by the end of the season we might get close, and then we start it all again when we redevelop new chassis and suspensions etc.
Its much better to develop the right foot throttle control :)
aaronng
05-03-2007, 09:54 PM
I've never been a fan of factory controlled traction control systems for this reason. I believe they are more a marketing tool than an actual driving aid.
To give you an idea, the lambos and ferraris that we work closely with in GT racing have state of the art traction control systems based on pendulum axis movements, suspension compression, tyre slip relative to the other tyres etc, and the amount of time we put into trying to perfect it, by the end of the season we might get close, and then we start it all again when we redevelop new chassis and suspensions etc.
Its much better to develop the right foot throttle control :)
It's good for particular vehicles that are tail happy, but for the Euro, it actually turns better (VSA off) with full throttle in a corner even with the inner wheel spinning when compared to having VSA on.
Hey guys I think a few of you are wrong in regards to what James is working on for JTune and the Euros. I was only talking to him yesterday regarding a clients car and he has a fully tune able option ready for the Euro, compatible with VSA drive by wire, immobilizer etc using the standard ECU.
The reflash isn't even on the market yet for about 2 years since it was announced so I won't expect that soon for the stand alone one.:D
It's good for particular vehicles that are tail happy, but for the Euro, it actually turns better (VSA off) with full throttle in a corner even with the inner wheel spinning when compared to having VSA on.
VSA has definately saved me a crash. Never had problems with oversteer - but I have had the car simply not turn in when requested on a wet road. Granted I was approaching a little hot for the corner and this was when I had my Falken tyres towards the end of their life. As I was turning the car started to slide towards the curb on the other side of the road. The steering wheel was pointed in the right direction but the car refused to go in that direction.
It felt like all 4 wheels were sliding as they reached their traction limit. It took longer than I expected but the VSA did straighten up the car (somewhat sharply) and I didn't hit anything - although I wasn't exactly on the right side of the road by the time this happened. I was greeted by the VSA "flash flash flash".
So the VSA does work - but don't expect it to kick in very fast if you are understeering. It waits for a bit of a slide before it works. I don't drive in the wet without VSA on. No matter how good you are at driving you can't brake individual wheels.
aaronng
06-03-2007, 08:25 AM
^^ Yeah, I drive slower in the wet because the tyre grip is much lower in the wet. But VSA still off for me. :)
pornstar
06-03-2007, 10:27 AM
VSA has definately saved me a crash. Never had problems with oversteer - but I have had the car simply not turn in when requested on a wet road. Granted I was approaching a little hot for the corner and this was when I had my Falken tyres towards the end of their life. As I was turning the car started to slide towards the curb on the other side of the road. The steering wheel was pointed in the right direction but the car refused to go in that direction.
It felt like all 4 wheels were sliding as they reached their traction limit. It took longer than I expected but the VSA did straighten up the car (somewhat sharply) and I didn't hit anything - although I wasn't exactly on the right side of the road by the time this happened. I was greeted by the VSA "flash flash flash".
So the VSA does work - but don't expect it to kick in very fast if you are understeering. It waits for a bit of a slide before it works. I don't drive in the wet without VSA on. No matter how good you are at driving you can't brake individual wheels.
That said yoram, driver attitude should really play the bigger role and say, hey its wet shouldnt be going this fast. Its kind of like saying, I must retain ABS because ABS has saved me many times. I think the question then goes to...why are you getting the ABS to activate on the street...
Just my 2 cents and definately not flaming or picking on you yoram
That said yoram, driver attitude should really play the bigger role and say, hey its wet shouldnt be going this fast. Its kind of like saying, I must retain ABS because ABS has saved me many times. I think the question then goes to...why are you getting the ABS to activate on the street...
Just my 2 cents and definately not flaming or picking on you yoram
Fair comment! The problem in Australia is we have very poor driver training and I can see why stability control like VSA and ABS really reduce accidents and injury when we have such poor driving skills as a nation. Training for emergency driving situations is scant in most jurisdictions. In Victoria we don't even require someone to demonstrate competency at highway speeds before they are issued with a license. Apparently driving around the block for 10 minutes, parking and a 3 point turn is all that is necessary to demonstrate competence. It really is a hopeless situation and I imagine other states are the same.
In my case, I made a mistake as to the speed required for the corner. It wasn't fast as such - maybe 45kph around a corner in the wet. But it was too fast for the tyres I had on the vehicle at the time. VSA saved my ass on that occasion - so I imagine it can help correct mistakes made by inexperienced drivers too (or at least it will try).
I don't think you can say as you have stated VSA is more about "marketing". There is plenty of evidence to suggest that it does save lives.
pornstar
06-03-2007, 11:46 AM
Agree 110% with you about driver compentency and licensing requirements, its piss poor inmo.
Have you got any links for evidence as to the vsa saving lives articles or anything yoram? would love to read about it
Fair comment! The problem in Australia is we have very poor driver training and I can see why stability control like VSA and ABS really reduce accidents and injury when we have such poor driving skills as a nation. Training for emergency driving situations is scant in most jurisdictions. In Victoria we don't even require someone to demonstrate competency at highway speeds before they are issued with a license. Apparently driving around the block for 10 minutes, parking and a 3 point turn is all that is necessary to demonstrate competence. It really is a hopeless situation and I imagine other states are the same.
In my case, I made a mistake as to the speed required for the corner. It wasn't fast as such - maybe 45kph around a corner in the wet. But it was too fast for the tyres I had on the vehicle at the time. VSA saved my ass on that occasion - so I imagine it can help correct mistakes made by inexperienced drivers too (or at least it will try).
I don't think you can say as you have stated VSA is more about "marketing". There is plenty of evidence to suggest that it does save lives.
Have you got any links for evidence as to the vsa saving lives articles or anything yoram? would love to read about it
There is heaps out there. Take a look at page 8 onwards here:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/strategytargetsperformance/rsap/mp20apr06/briefonactivesafety?version=1
There were also some really good tests on Fifth Gear some time ago.
There is heaps out there. Take a look at page 8 onwards here:
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/strategytargetsperformance/rsap/mp20apr06/briefonactivesafety?version=1
There were also some really good tests on Fifth Gear some time ago.
which car was it on test? if it is ferraris or in that level cars, you would refer to adjustable traction control which also have been using in F1 which totally much much different comparisons.
which car was it on test? if it is ferraris or in that level cars, you would refer to adjustable traction control which also have been using in F1 which totally much much different comparisons.
Nah it was a Jaguar if I remember correctly. It was definately a test of VSA as they had the female presenter lose control of the vehicle when VSA was off.
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