300-400Whp B16 civic

[Phat999]

Hey all over the next year i am looking to build a pretty quick civic
My power goal is somewhere between 300-400HP at the wheels.
Turbo wise i was leaning towards a GT30R to run the power comfortably but am finding it hard to get my info on how to go about it.
So thought that i would try my luck here as to what everyone thinks i'll need to run this set-up on a daily driven street car. Everything from internals, fuel system and driveline and where the best places are to go.
Thanks

[Limbo]

just calculating your goals, you want 224kw to 300kw atw.

Now just by that your gonna need a pretty hardcore build to make those power figures. This is not gonna be a cheap build. Prob 1000cc injectors for a start. Full rebuilt engine.

I'd say your best bet is to start with a larger engine also b18c or b20.

Putting power to the ground is gonna be really hard. Under boost this things gonna be a nugget. For daily driving its not gonna be friendly when boost kicks in.

Its doable but its gonna depend on how much $$$ you wanna pour into it
I'd say this is gonna be at least a $15k+ build

[Phat999]

I don't intend to run that power all day but for trips out to the track etc i want to have that kind of power on tap. Ultimate goal is to run deep into the 12's with a street car (12sec 1/4's). I'm thinking around the 10,000$ for the build over the next 12 or so months.

[Benson]

10k for engine or engine +turbo kit?

Quality turbo kit will set you back 10k.

[m0nty ITR]

Look at Yonas' car. he's done 12s with NA. That gets big ups from me. Anyone can throw a whole heap of cash at a car to get 12s but to do that with an NA setup demands respect. It also retains a street driven, trackable poise too. A 400hp FWD car is rendered useless the first time it tries to turn a corner.

[Phat999]

yeah but 12's out of a NA isn't quite as streetable as 12's with a turbo? (or am i wrong?)

[destrukshn]

wrong.
n/a has a smoother more predictable power band, than a turbo.

[Phat999]

which would b the N/A motor of choice to pull 12's in a EG/EK civic in street form

[beeza]

Just make sure you got deep pockets and please make a lovely little thread of your build for all of us to drool over :)

[1996ek1]

which would b the N/A motor of choice to pull 12's in a EG/EK civic in street form

K24 i would guess ?
Or perhaps a little less torque, a K20 ?

Edit: Realised you said N/A, so i would say K24, you wont have rediculous torque because there's no turbo :p

[DLO01]

For 300hp all you need is pistons, rods and decent turbo setup & tune.

[destrukshn]

wrong.
n/a has a smoother more predictable power band, than a turbo.
to qoute myself,
though i'd still go turbo anyday
lol

[m0nty ITR]

You've gotta spend ALOT of money to get the car there. I'd prefer to buy an EG and drop a K20 into it with a tight suspension setup purely for track use....

That gives me an idea. No, wait. Finish project #1 first. :p

[TODA AU]

Hey all over the next year i am looking to build a pretty quick civic
My power goal is somewhere between 300-400HP at the wheels.
Turbo wise i was leaning towards a GT30R to run the power comfortably but am finding it hard to get my info on how to go about it.
So thought that i would try my luck here as to what everyone thinks i'll need to run this set-up on a daily driven street car. Everything from internals, fuel system and driveline and where the best places are to go.
Thanks

It's pretty easy to get what you want & with a good LSD & semi's a turbo B16A done right makes for a lethal cuircut weapon.
If you were in Sydney, I could organise for you to get a ride in one in a CRX.
It's a track car with 290kw @ wheels (18psi) - still registered.
Low boost (10psi) 210kw
This car uses a reliable setup that has been running for approx 6~7years without issue & still going strong.
NB: This is a car that sees the track regularly.

Set-up is as follows:
B16A engine + cable box in AUDM CRX (EF8)
Ported head + cams/Springs/retainers/cam pulleys/timing belt.
Type R intake manifold & throttle. Baffled sump & breather kit
Forged pistons & rods, Heavy duty oil pump gear, TODA 4.1kg LW flywheel, RPS Turbo clutch (from USA), Cusco LSD, JDM CRX SiR Box - std ratios,
OEM Bearings gaskets & seals, HKS cast exhaust manifold, Garrett(HKS) GT3037S 56T core in T28 housings 0.89 A/R turbine housing.
3" exhaust system incl high flow cat, wastegate is integral & plumbs back into exhaust (no screamer)
Oil cooler, low temp thermostat, low temp fan switch, larger radiator.
70mm intercooler piping with custom tube & fin intercooler.
044 fuel pump (in tank) / Adj fuel reg / 750cc injectors
Microtech ECU + external coil & CDI
Willwood 4 pot front brakes, Tein HA sus + Noltech bushes, Dunlop D01J tyres on OEM EK4 rims.

Power band is 3500rpm to 9000rpm (9500rpm rev limit)
Torque is flat from 4500rpm to 8500rpm (6000N tractive effort 4th gear)

It does have minor issues with traction in 2nd gear until the tyres warm.
Tuning can be tricky for some... Ignition timing is critical...
Too little = No power, Too much = broken engine
Best mixtures on pump fuel: 11.2 @ 18psi
More power with same engine by simply changing turbocharger & exhaust manifold.
It has been to the drags once & ran 12.4 @ 128mph (60ft was pretty bad though - 2.4sec)
PM me if you need more details.
Cheers

Adrian

[jdmTYPE R]

pm 90-pov his got a turbo setup with the power of wat u aiming for. ran a 12.1 on street tyres on a rainy track at jamberoo.
http://www.ozhonda.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73767
heres a link

[spardikis]

why do people always over rate how hard it is to do?
as dean said, pistons, rods and a decent branded turbo.... and keep the b16a....

just build it right, use quality parts and tune it spot on. also plan what type of power you want and at what rpm you need it... that will determin what size turbo, intercooler piping, manifolds, t.b, and other things u will need...

and 1000cc injectors? ? ?

[Phat999]

yeah i didn't think it would b quite as hard as the 1st couple of replys but i know it isn't going to be the easiest either.

Thanks TODA AU for all the info. car sounds like a weapon.
90POV is my hero civic lol. saw it on the honda cruise (in BNE/sunny coast) last year, autosalon n rarely out n about (couple of thursdays ago) n love the car. love seeing that car.

I will be sure to keep everyone informed as the build starts (as soon as i sell my accord n find a civic) so if anyone is after a 94 VTi accord dumped rims stereo etc PM me (in brissy) so i can start this build

[pwr2w8]

It's pretty easy to get what you want & with a good LSD & semi's a turbo B16A done right makes for a lethal cuircut weapon.
If you were in Sydney, I could organise for you to get a ride in one in a CRX.
It's a track car with 290kw @ wheels (18psi) - still registered.
Low boost (10psi) 210kw
This car uses a reliable setup that has been running for approx 6~7years without issue & still going strong.
NB: This is a car that sees the track regularly.

Set-up is as follows:
B16A engine + cable box in AUDM CRX (EF8)
Ported head + cams/Springs/retainers/cam pulleys/timing belt.
Type R intake manifold & throttle. Baffled sump & breather kit
Forged pistons & rods, Heavy duty oil pump gear, TODA 4.1kg LW flywheel, RPS Turbo clutch (from USA), Cusco LSD, JDM CRX SiR Box - std ratios,
OEM Bearings gaskets & seals, HKS cast exhaust manifold, Garrett(HKS) GT3037S 56T core in T28 housings 0.89 A/R turbine housing.
3" exhaust system incl high flow cat, wastegate is integral & plumbs back into exhaust (no screamer)
Oil cooler, low temp thermostat, low temp fan switch, larger radiator.
70mm intercooler piping with custom tube & fin intercooler.
044 fuel pump (in tank) / Adj fuel reg / 750cc injectors
Microtech ECU + external coil & CDI
Willwood 4 pot front brakes, Tein HA sus + Noltech bushes, Dunlop D01J tyres on OEM EK4 rims.

Power band is 3500rpm to 9000rpm (9500rpm rev limit)
Torque is flat from 4500rpm to 8500rpm (6000N tractive effort 4th gear)

It does have minor issues with traction in 2nd gear until the tyres warm.
Tuning can be tricky for some... Ignition timing is critical...
Too little = No power, Too much = broken engine
Best mixtures on pump fuel: 11.2 @ 18psi
More power with same engine by simply changing turbocharger & exhaust manifold.
It has been to the drags once & ran 12.4 @ 128mph (60ft was pretty bad though - 2.4sec)
PM me if you need more details.
Cheers

Adrian

What comp pistons does it run as turbo sounds to big and it sounds like its lagy, i personaly will go with a GT2871R WITH .64 housing.

[Phat999]

i might b able to get a cheap GT28 (needs a rebuild) off a mate that i find out this week so that should be the turbo i'll be going with if it's all good. somthing that should spool up a bit quicker than the GT30
i'll b spreading my money over what i have to, to get the job done. and as it will b a daily driven car i will definately need the reliability in it, but i dont n won't b cutting corners.
Which brings me to who can tune it in queensland? or would i be better off spending money and lookin interstate.

[jdm16]

Check Arizona Forced Induction, Full-Race or the others on Hondamarketplace for turbo kits you want. GT30R would be perfect for that power level.

Build the block with forged pistons, rods, new oil / water pumps etc.

Stock B16A camshafts have run 500whp+ in the US so its up to you if you need to change them. New valves, springs, retainers, turbo p&p, Walbro fuel pump, RC 750cc injectors, FPR etc etc.

Tuning is very very important. Probably the most important.

Its not cheap, and if your going to do it - do it right with the right parts. Do your research first then start buying. But as per the other turbo cars on here, its worth it and a lot of fun. Personal choice it comes down to whether turbo or NA is better.

PM me if you need parts sourced.

[Phat999]

thanks JDM16.
still doing research and trying to source a car (if anyone know's someone with a VTiR EK i'd b more than happy talking about it)
but can't wait to build it shall b a very fun toy

[Limo]

and 1000cc injectors? ? ?

i'd rather my injectors be too big and run @ 50% than too small and run @ 90%

yeh its not to hard to achieve what you want. tho i would rethink the budget again tho, probably double it and you should have some change left over.

im running ~190kws on my daily driven ef8 and thats with a completely standard engine n intake mani; and it runs almost the same as it did N/A. almost about to put it back into the shop again tho to rebuild the engine.

parts wise, cp pistions make very good turbo pistions, edelbrock intake manifold/Throttle bodies quite good and arent too expensive, i went for the full race turbo manifold, but there are plenty of others that are very good that arent as expensive. RC injectors, good quality intercooler, bigger radiator, clutch kit.. the list goes on, just depends on what your willing to spend, as every little thing will help out in some way.

i'd be looking overseas, especially in the US, exchange rates are ~$1AU:$0.90US is pretty damn good. so alota cheaper parts.

[Limo]

thanks JDM16.
still doing research and trying to source a car (if anyone know's someone with a VTiR EK i'd b more than happy talking about it)
but can't wait to build it shall b a very fun toy

are you looking for a hatch or coupe?

[Phat999]

Hatch would b better (as there a bit cheaper) i kno there is 2 coupes forsale in brissy at the moment (on carsales) but looking to spend around 10-13,000 on the car so hatches go for around that figure.

As for turbo kits i saw a decent kit on the Arizona Forced Induction site for about 3,500 US which i thort looked pretty good??
Here's the link
http://www.afiturbo.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=51_52&products_id=9

[Limbo]

be careful with US kits as the manifolds tend to have issues are their engines are mounted slightly differently due to the driver being on the opposite side.
I for one have been caught out before.

Try an AVO kit if your looking at building one or goto a reputable builder to make you one. Tell them your goal and they will be able to show you how to get there. $$$$ is the only issue

[Phat999]

yeah sweet as.
if only $$ wasn't a problem.
i'll look into the AVO stuff tho. (new hot4's has where to turbo ur car around australia n had a couple of places at the gold coast) and AVO was in there so will check it out for sure.

[Benson]

be careful with US kits as the manifolds tend to have issues are their engines are mounted slightly differently due to the driver being on the opposite side.


?? please explain more.. i dont see why it would matter. Engine is still mounted in the same position. Only difference is the brake booster and steering rack which is on the other side.

[Limbo]

i've seen a few different ones where their manifold do no clear i.e hit the gearbox, and some other clearance issues.

At least if you buy it in Aust your gonna be able to take it back

[DLO01]

Theres no difference in that regard. In that regard it really depends on what size turbo you use. If the manifold is for a small turbo and you use a large one, you'll have clearance issues.

[Phat999]

yeah makes sense.
I'm not sure on what kit to go with yet.
But i'll see how we go.

[SLOWEGG]

If you have the money, full-race. Theres other cheaper companies but very similar like AFI and Peakboost.

[Phat999]

If you have the money, full-race. Theres other cheaper companies but very similar like AFI and Peakboost.

So a kit like this one?
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_717_756_926&products_id=1282&osCsid=f6d44b49864ed39c57fe49164977ce29

That seems to be around what i'm looking at

[SLOWEGG]

Only major difference between kits will be the turbo and intercooler size.

[Weq]

be careful with US kits as the manifolds tend to have issues are their engines are mounted slightly differently due to the driver being on the opposite side.
I for one have been caught out before.


I think you may be getting confused with a defective manifold. Every single manifold made for a US car will work on an AUS spec car. If u have every seen a fabricator create a manifold, you would understand why (hint: they use a dummy engine on a stand).

Try not to scare people into not using American parts. They are the cheapest and best quality you will get anywhere. Yeh im a little biased, ut i think they have rightly gained recognistion as the best honda tuners in the world. bar none.

[fatboyz39]

as for manifold/turbo's not fitting sometime the block webbing needs to be grind down.

[Limbo]

http://www.nahux.com/NPOWER/PICS/MANIFOLD/M-B1618_3.JPG


This is what i meant, where some manifold have the turbo bolting will be tilted towards the engine on the left. When you mount a turbo with our RHS drivers, you cannot mount the turbo as the front housing hits the entire engine. Doesn't matter how much webbing you cut your won't be able to fit it.

The only other way is to mount it the way they have and then you will run into other issues like A/C and dump pipe clearnaces.

Like i said be careful.

the US are good at hondas, no doubt, but there are also more con artists in the states.

[Limbo]

I think you may be getting confused with a defective manifold. Every single manifold made for a US car will work on an AUS spec car. If u have every seen a fabricator create a manifold, you would understand why (hint: they use a dummy engine on a stand).

Try not to scare people into not using American parts. They are the cheapest and best quality you will get anywhere. Yeh im a little biased, ut i think they have rightly gained recognistion as the best honda tuners in the world. bar none.


I've seen dozens of turbo manifolds, my friend builds pretty good manifolds, there are quite a few people on OH with them making great power. (i'm sure most of you know who he is ;))
He's also told me of the number of idiots who walk in with an ebay manifold and ended up having to build them a new manifold.

Just another note he uses steam-piping on all his manifolds

[DLO01]

This is what i meant, where some manifold have the turbo bolting will be tilted towards the engine on the left. When you mount a turbo with our RHS drivers, you cannot mount the turbo as the front housing hits the entire engine. Doesn't matter how much webbing you cut your won't be able to fit it.

The only other way is to mount it the way they have and then you will run into other issues like A/C and dump pipe clearnaces.

Like i said be careful.

the US are good at hondas, no doubt, but there are also more con artists in the states.

Tell me what the difference is in that area the turbo sits from US to AU?

[Limbo]

Look at the above pic. For some reason they can manage to put the turbo setup with the intake side on the right and the dump side on the left.
WHen putting mine together i thought of that but it would never have worked, as i had no-where near enough space for anything.

Now with their engines mounted on the opposite, i'm assuming here they can mount it that way. Not 100% sure. COuld just be some cheap copy where they got the turbo bolting turned wrong in manufacture and did think about it (seen this with exhaust manifolds its pretty funny, except if you buy one).


In these manifolds the way they angle the turbo mount you can only have the intake of the turbo on the right, as the turbo is larger on intake than exhaust side. If you don't beleive me you can try for yourself.

IN alot of the good setupd i've seen from the states they do make them properly with the turbo mount, left side out more than the right side, giving clearance for the intake of the turbo to sit.

[DLO01]

Na its the same.

The reasons for mounting the turbo is because.

Talking in RHD cars.

The compressor is on the passenger side if you have got rid of AC. This way the down pipe has better access directly to the recess of the sump. Sure theres not much room for a filter, but this is the usual way if you don't have AC.

The compressor is on the driver side if you want to retain AC. This way the down pipe can just fit in between turbo and the AC compressor. The exhaust pipe then has to squiggle down to the recess under the sump. The turbo flange on this option is angled out a bit so the compressor housing does not clash with the block webbing. You may have to shave some. If you have a larger turbo it will clash with the engine stamp block. This is the problem I had.

My car is set up retaining the AC as initially I was going to keep it, but since got rid of it.

[Limbo]

yeah i know about the webbing i had to cut it myself also to fit the turbo, but these manifold are pretty bad, you wouldn't be able to fit a T28 in.

I know cos i saw one customer come in and they did a dummy fit.
Ended up getting a custom one instead

[Limbo]

ENd of the day like you said if you rip everything out you might be able to.

You could even run a spacer if you wanted get a biger turbo in but it stuffs around with your setup and just causes more headaches than you would want when building your turbo.

You have enough issues without having to worry about clearnaces

[barefootbonzai]

lmao, there's no difference what so ever in the space provided for your turbo setup being RHD or LHD. It's EXACTLY the same.

[Weq]

Limbo; the reason you are having trouble fitting a turbo there is because you are using a turbo that is bigger/different dimensions then the manifold was designed for. Espically with A/C saving manifolds, u will find only a small range or turbos are suitable for the application. Even going from say a garret T3 to a chinese T3 will result in the turbo being located in a differnt position. Casting its diffferent. Even with a GT30, u can have two different front-cover options which can mean the difference between a turbo fitting, and a turbo hitting the block.

I assure you, the LHD/RHD has NOTHING to do with your problem. Seriously. Please stop talking about this, you are giving the n00bs scarey feelings in there stomach.

[EGB18CT]

^ correct, ill be starting my build soon, using a full race topmount dual wg setup, i suggest you look at a afi or peakboost kit since your budget may not afford a full race kit. Get some nice cp pistons, decent rods a mild pnp, springs, retainers, valves and you have a killer setup. id budget 15k for this tho.

If you want more power you will need some sleeves to stay safe. Id suggest you also pick your turbo kit last and talk with your tuner to see what he recommends and have a chat of whats do able and where you want to go. Id sort out your internals first and pick the kit last as this is the easiest thing to do and pick a turbo that will suit your build, dont buy a turbo and try build something around it as you will be limited and in the end it may not reach your goals.

US kits have nothing wrong with them, i'm sure they will shit on everything here 99% of the time. Suss out some builds on Honda-tech.com and save your cash.

[Weq]

^ correct, ill be starting my build soon, using a full race topmount dual wg setup, i suggest you look at a afi or peakboost kit since your budget may not afford a full race kit. Get some nice cp pistons, decent rods a mild pnp, springs, retainers, valves and you have a killer setup. id budget 15k for this tho.

If you want more power you will need some sleeves to stay safe. Id suggest you also pick your turbo kit last and talk with your tuner to see what he recommends and have a chat of whats do able and where you want to go. Id sort out your internals first and pick the kit last as this is the easiest thing to do and pick a turbo that will suit your build, dont buy a turbo and try build something around it as you will be limited and in the end it may not reach your goals.

US kits have nothing wrong with them, i'm sure they will shit on everything here 99% of the time. Suss out some builds on Honda-tech.com and save your cash.

Good information, accept i would defaintly build an engine with a turbo in mind. Actually a power goal in mind, which implicitly means a turbo as well. My other recommendation is sleeves sleeves sleeves. Espically on d-series. Otherwise you will defaintly learn to replace a headgasket in a few hours.

[Hipowerracing]

im sure 90POV is selling his setup... haha.. he bought my FD RX7... sell out!!!
haha.. message him is car does 290kw